Holocaust deniers

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Re: Holocaust deniers

#121  Postby Regina » May 02, 2010 8:13 pm

That's why I'm having a hard time conceding them freedom of speech. I think it's perfectly alright to regard holocaust denial as a punishable offence, as is the case in Germany, because these people have a political agenda which will mean the very end of every type of freedom.
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#122  Postby Agrippina » May 02, 2010 8:14 pm

Regina wrote:That's why I'm having a hard time conceding them freedom of speech. I think it's perfectly alright to regard holocaust denial as a punishable offence, as is the case in Germany, because these people have a political agenda which will mean the very end of every type of freedom.


Yes, just like people here who sing "kill the boer" or other people who want to kill 'black' people. Hate speech has to be shut dow. Thank goodness, our president has shut that song up now.
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#123  Postby virphen » May 02, 2010 11:04 pm

Regina wrote:That's why I'm having a hard time conceding them freedom of speech. I think it's perfectly alright to regard holocaust denial as a punishable offence, as is the case in Germany, because these people have a political agenda which will mean the very end of every type of freedom.


They may very well have that agenda. The problem is, who are you to decide when it's genuine stupidity, and when it's a nefarious political agenda. To reverse-engineer the Dawkins comparison, Creationists clearly have a political agenda (one which I consider very hateful indeed), should they too be banned from speaking their minds?

Also, this thread has totally degenerated into a feed-the-troll-athon. If Aurlito was in the slightest bit interested in the subject he'd have done the tiniest bit of research himself. He's not. He's just playing off this topic because he knows people get very emotional about it.
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#124  Postby Gawdzilla » May 02, 2010 11:08 pm

The agenda is obvious:

"Holocaust fake" ⇒ "Nazi good!"
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#125  Postby Varangian » May 02, 2010 11:14 pm

Gawdzilla wrote:The agenda is obvious:

"Holocaust fake" ⇒ "Nazi good!"


What I love about the Nazi crowd is their ability to vehemently deny the Holocaust, only to chant "six million more" the next minute. That kind of stupidity is comforting, as they are unlikely to get organized enough to be a threat to democracy.
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#126  Postby virphen » May 02, 2010 11:16 pm

Gawdzilla wrote:The agenda is obvious:

"Holocaust fake" ⇒ "Nazi good!"


I think that's a generalisation - but even if it holds 100% true, why should that imply denying the holocaust should be a crime? (I doubt you think it should though?). I don't think it should be a crime to admire Hitler, no more than it should be a crime to admire Mohammed, or any number of biblical characters who aren't that much worse.

Very Orwellian.
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#127  Postby Gawdzilla » May 02, 2010 11:16 pm

Varangian wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:The agenda is obvious:

"Holocaust fake" ⇒ "Nazi good!"


What I love about the Nazi crowd is their ability to vehemently deny the Holocaust, only to chant "six million more" the next minute. That kind of stupidity is comforting, as they are unlikely to get organized enough to be a threat to democracy.

Plus they eat their young. :coffee:
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#128  Postby Gawdzilla » May 02, 2010 11:17 pm

virphen wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:The agenda is obvious:

"Holocaust fake" ⇒ "Nazi good!"


I think that's a generalisation - but even if it holds 100% true, why should that imply denying the holocaust should be a crime? (I doubt you think it should though?). I don't think it should be a crime to admire Hitler, no more than it should be a crime to admire Mohammed, or any number of biblical characters who aren't that much worse.

Very Orwellian.

I didn't say it should be a crime. (Personally, I wouldn't wait for them to arrested and tried. (And I never said that, Mr. Prosecutor.))
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#129  Postby Agrippina » May 03, 2010 2:24 am

Varangian wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:The agenda is obvious:

"Holocaust fake" ⇒ "Nazi good!"


What I love about the Nazi crowd is their ability to vehemently deny the Holocaust, only to chant "six million more" the next minute. That kind of stupidity is comforting, as they are unlikely to get organized enough to be a threat to democracy.


Even better.
While there is ample evidence for the numbers of people who were murdered, experimented on, displaced, humiliated, had their possessions stolen (including their gold teeth), deniers won't accept the truth about them. Yet the fervently believe that 40,000 people walked out of Egypt and spent 40 years in the desert wandering around without leaving a single trace of having been there!
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#130  Postby Moridin » May 03, 2010 3:25 pm

The problem is that Holocaust deniers like to shift the debate from the facts of the Holocaust to various meta issues whether or not it should be legal to deny the Holocaust etc. This often occurs when the deniers have run out of "arguments".
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#131  Postby David M » May 03, 2010 4:09 pm

Aurlito wrote:stijndeloose, in the article that you've linked in the first page, it mentions death certificates of less than 70000 Jews. how do you know that they weren't killed by contagious diseases?


Because people who wrote those certificates have stated that they were not putting the correct cause of death on them.
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#132  Postby Gawdzilla » May 03, 2010 5:56 pm

"If you tell a big lie often enough, some people will start to believe it's true." Joseph Goebbels, Reichsministerium für Volksaufklärung und Propaganda or Propagandaministerium
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Geoff wrote:Not that I've anything against paedophilia, but it does leave one open to accusations of catholicism...


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Re: Holocaust deniers

#133  Postby Moridin » May 03, 2010 6:51 pm

Gawdzilla wrote:"If you tell a big lie often enough, some people will start to believe it's true." Joseph Goebbels, Reichsministerium für Volksaufklärung und Propaganda or Propagandaministerium


If a Holocaust denier uses this, it is inconsistent with the deniers position that the Holocaust is given too much attention over far worse genocides, such as the ones in Russian and China. You probably intended to use it with Holocaust denial being the big lie, and that is of course a valid point.
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#134  Postby Gawdzilla » May 03, 2010 6:59 pm

Moridin wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:"If you tell a big lie often enough, some people will start to believe it's true." Joseph Goebbels, Reichsministerium für Volksaufklärung und Propaganda or Propagandaministerium


If a Holocaust denier uses this, it is inconsistent with the deniers position that the Holocaust is given too much attention over far worse genocides, such as the ones in Russian and China. You probably intended to use it with Holocaust denial being the big lie, and that is of course a valid point.

The neo-Nazi who promote holocaust denial study Goebbels. The ones that can read, anyway. The Big Lie is the core of their agenda. "Say it often enough, loud enough, and we'll get more people in our camp. Ignore refutations, ignore 'fatal flaws', just 'get it out there'." All conspiracy theorist work along these lines, the neo-Nazis just have an icon who was "in the trade", so to speak.
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Geoff wrote:Not that I've anything against paedophilia, but it does leave one open to accusations of catholicism...


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Re: Holocaust deniers

#135  Postby aspire1670 » May 03, 2010 8:06 pm

Aurlito wrote:
stijndeloose, in the article that you've linked in the first page, it mentions death certificates of less than 70000 Jews. how do you know that they weren't killed by contagious diseases?


You raise a good point. In fact they were killed by contagious diseases: Hitlerism; Nazism; Anti-Semitism. Despite the best efforts of modern medicine these contagions have still not been eliminated.
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#136  Postby Regina » May 04, 2010 7:09 am

virphen wrote:
Regina wrote:That's why I'm having a hard time conceding them freedom of speech. I think it's perfectly alright to regard holocaust denial as a punishable offence, as is the case in Germany, because these people have a political agenda which will mean the very end of every type of freedom.


They may very well have that agenda. The problem is, who are you to decide when it's genuine stupidity, and when it's a nefarious political agenda. To reverse-engineer the Dawkins comparison, Creationists clearly have a political agenda (one which I consider very hateful indeed), should they too be banned from speaking their minds?

Also, this thread has totally degenerated into a feed-the-troll-athon. If Aurlito was in the slightest bit interested in the subject he'd have done the tiniest bit of research himself. He's not. He's just playing off this topic because he knows people get very emotional about it.

The point is, I have yet to see an atheist (at least on the boards I frequent) who would object to things like the one linked to below. On the contrary, they are welcomed.

http://ncse.com/news/2008/06/creationis ... red-001673
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#137  Postby virphen » May 04, 2010 7:12 am

Regina wrote:
The point is, I have yet to see an atheist (at least on the boards I frequent) who would object to things like the one linked to below. On the contrary, they are welcomed.

http://ncse.com/news/2008/06/creationis ... red-001673


Apples and oranges.

Were a history teacher to teach holocaust denial and refuse to teach the regular course on WWII if it was part of their curriculum, they should face the same fate. That doesn't mean either should be criminalised though.
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#138  Postby Regina » May 04, 2010 10:50 am

Hm, but what about the bishop, whose influence on his congregation is even bigger than that of a teacher on a class, and who can't be fired, for obvious reasons? Things get even more complicated when you look at Germany, where the churches are largely financed by the taxpayer (including bishops' salaries) ?
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#139  Postby virphen » May 04, 2010 10:54 am

Regina wrote:Hm, but what about the bishop, whose influence on his congregation is even bigger than that of a teacher on a class, and who can't be fired, for obvious reasons? Things get even more complicated when you look at Germany, where the churches are largely financed by the taxpayer (including bishops' salaries) ?


Well, I haven't thought about that much - I think it's an insane situation to have the state funding churches - but maybe the state in that situation could cut off funding to his church as long as such a person is maintaining that view in a public way while holding such a position.

I just think making it a criminal offence is ridiculous. It is criminalising having an opinion over an issue of historical fact, even such a ridiculously untenable one.
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#140  Postby Rome Existed » May 09, 2010 1:22 am

I say this to holocaust deniers.......... why didn't the Germans at the many, many trials just claim that it didn't happen? Instead they claimed they were following orders, the courts had no right to try them, they were proud to have carried it out, etc.
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