Holocaust deniers

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Re: Holocaust deniers

#21  Postby Moridin » May 01, 2010 11:25 pm

Holocaust deniers typically focus on a handful of anomalies in eyewitness testimony, or the way the number of estimated victims at various places has changed in the past, but tend to ignore the massive amount of independent evidence that all converge on the same conclusion, much the same way creationists do. In fact, it could be argued that there exists a common methodology for most pseudoscientific movements.
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#22  Postby Gawdzilla » May 02, 2010 12:35 am

Moridin wrote:In fact, it could be argued that there exists a common methodology for most pseudoscientific movements.

I've been interested in conspiracy theories for decades now, and pseudoscience and religious extremism exhibit the hallmarks of CT to a remarkable degree. I think it's only happenstance whether a person believes in one type of conspiracy theory, say Intelligent Design or "the government knows all about UFOs!", if they do, indeed, only believe one. It's mostly likely that this tendency is the result of one type of psychological problem that manifests itself in different ways according to the exposure to one CT or another at some crucial stage in a person's life.
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#23  Postby Agrippina » May 02, 2010 4:01 am

Gawdzilla wrote:
Moridin wrote:In fact, it could be argued that there exists a common methodology for most pseudoscientific movements.

I've been interested in conspiracy theories for decades now, and pseudoscience and religious extremism exhibit the hallmarks of CT to a remarkable degree. I think it's only happenstance whether a person believes in one type of conspiracy theory, say Intelligent Design or "the government knows all about UFOs!", if they do, indeed, only believe one. It's mostly likely that this tendency is the result of one type of psychological problem that manifests itself in different ways according to the exposure to one CT or another at some crucial stage in a person's life.


And here I was thinking that a small group of very rich people really do control everything. :naughty2:
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#24  Postby Aurlito » May 02, 2010 7:39 am

stijndeloose wrote:
Aurlito wrote:Holocaust is refutable ...


Meaning? :ask:

Means despite having evidence, actually firm evidence, we can have our own biases about this event. because of political advantage that has been taken out of it, we can assume that the evidence is made up.
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#25  Postby stijndeloose » May 02, 2010 7:46 am

Aurlito wrote:
stijndeloose wrote:
Aurlito wrote:Holocaust is refutable ...


Meaning? :ask:

Means despite having evidence, actually firm evidence, we can have our own biases about this event. because of political advantage that has been taken out of it, we can assume that the evidence is made up.


That's what I thought, sort of.
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#26  Postby Aurlito » May 02, 2010 8:29 am

There are so many genocides in the history, from the anecdotes I've read from Alexander the great, he killed a whole city because his fella kicked it, but I think that none of them is as exaggerated as holocaust is. I don't know what they teach to Israeli kids about this dimwitted event, that they started a copycat holocaust with poor Palestinians.
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#27  Postby stijndeloose » May 02, 2010 8:38 am

:shock:

You didn't read the study I posted a link to earlier, did you?
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#28  Postby Aurlito » May 02, 2010 9:08 am

stijndeloose wrote::shock:

You didn't read the study I posted a link to earlier, did you?

What if the ovens were made up by Israel to proclaim that Jews were cremated?
Even if Jews were killed in Auschwitz, why do they retaliate by killing Palestinians? Palestine wasn't even in World War II.
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#29  Postby Varangian » May 02, 2010 10:19 am

Aurlito, expect someone to go Holocaust on your ass... Your posts are perfect examples of why Holocaust deniers have to be fought, and each new generation reminded that it happened.
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#30  Postby Aurlito » May 02, 2010 10:34 am

Varangian wrote:Aurlito, expect someone to go Holocaust on your ass... Your posts are perfect examples of why Holocaust deniers have to be fought, and each new generation reminded that it happened.

Actually, I think every Palestinian infant suffering from lack of dry milk in Gaza is a manifesto for reminding each generation that a high school dropper has supposedly killed 6 million Jews.
You didn't answer my question. why Jews are retaliating by bonking Palestine?
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#31  Postby virphen » May 02, 2010 10:38 am

They aren't. Zionism pre-dates the holocaust, and is based on the long-standing religious bullshit of returning to he "promised land" The holocaust merely gave the movement unstoppable momentum... at least momentum the UK was unwilling to oppose in any serious way. Hence Israel.

I'm fucked if I know why I bothered giving even that most basic of summaries, given I'm convinced all you're doing in this thread is trolling.
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#32  Postby Fallible » May 02, 2010 10:47 am


!
MODNOTE
Aurlito, this thread is about Holocaust denial. I suggest that you very quickly stop this derail and steer yourself back on track, given the fact that you are a whisker away from a one-month suspension.

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Re: Holocaust deniers

#33  Postby Calilasseia » May 02, 2010 10:50 am

Aurlito wrote:There are so many genocides in the history, from the anecdotes I've read from Alexander the great, he killed a whole city because his fella kicked it, but I think that none of them is as exaggerated as holocaust is. I don't know what they teach to Israeli kids about this dimwitted event, that they started a copycat holocaust with poor Palestinians.


With respect to this and subsequent posts by the same user ...

MOD NOTE

Aurlito, aside from the fact that your derail about Palestine properly belongs in its own, it appears you need reminding about two salient sections of the FUA. First:

You may not:

* Troll i.e. disrupting or derailing a thread with off-topic, inflammatory or personal comments after being requested by staff to refrain;


As part of the staff, I am now requesting that you refrain from the above, Failure to observe this request will result in immediate and resolute sanctions. Understood?

Second:

rationalskepticism.org will not foster or support racist, homophobic or sexist bigotry.


Holocaust revisionism, in my view and that of many others, falls under this heading. If you need evidence to back this view up, there is plenty of literature in the public domain on the subject, for example, the Irving trial, where the racist nature of Holocaust revisionism was laid bare. Now unless you can present some facts to back your assertions, I suggest strongly that you desist. Otherwise, once again, swift, resolute and determined action will follow.
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#34  Postby Agrippina » May 02, 2010 10:54 am

Calilasseia wrote

should we simply throw up our hands and wail that it cannot be done? I say no. I say that we should strive to exercise that effort, and strive assiduously to be true to human history, especially during those dark eras when our far-distant reptilian inheritance (see Carl Sagan for more on this) rose to the fore, and for reasons either of territorial conquest or blind adherence to ideology, some of our species saw fit to kill many others of our species in gruesome and hideously cruel ways. We owe it to those unfortunate corpses to be diligent here, all the better to equip us to strive to avoid repeating the same mistakes, all the better to steer us away from actions that add to the contents of those mass graves. The dangers of not exercising this diligent effort are, in some respects, even greater than the dangers of not defending valid scientific theories against duplicitous attack from ideological stormtroopers for doctrine. We forget the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Armenian genocide, the horrors of trench warfare, the Holocaust, Tuol Sleng and Srebrenica at our peril, and we had better make damn sure that the lessons we learn from these festering canker sores on the body politic deliver to our species the kick up the backside it sorely needs.


Hear, hear. Thank you.
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#35  Postby Aurlito » May 02, 2010 11:10 am

I deeply feel indignation. first of all, in no way I was trolling, I was just participating in a thread about holocaust deniers, and as someone who deeply despises Palestinian genocides, that, is somehow predicated on holocaust, I shared my opinions with other users.
Secondly, I don't know why I'm a whisk away from one month suspension. I've done nothing wrong and have not received a single warning since my last suspension.
Thirdly, the things I said were neither racist or homophobic, nor bigotry. and they didn't need evidence because I wasn't denying holocaust. what I said, was that Holocaust is "refutable" because there has been, as many of you know, political advantages taken out of it, and we can assume that the evidence is made up for the advantage.
If you're provoked by the sentence in my signature, it's pretty obvious that it's for mockery.
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#36  Postby Gawdzilla » May 02, 2010 11:22 am

Agrippina wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:
Moridin wrote:In fact, it could be argued that there exists a common methodology for most pseudoscientific movements.

I've been interested in conspiracy theories for decades now, and pseudoscience and religious extremism exhibit the hallmarks of CT to a remarkable degree. I think it's only happenstance whether a person believes in one type of conspiracy theory, say Intelligent Design or "the government knows all about UFOs!", if they do, indeed, only believe one. It's mostly likely that this tendency is the result of one type of psychological problem that manifests itself in different ways according to the exposure to one CT or another at some crucial stage in a person's life.


And here I was thinking that a small group of very rich people really do control everything. :naughty2:

They paid me to say that. :shhh:
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#37  Postby Regina » May 02, 2010 11:48 am

Aurlito wrote:I deeply feel indignation. first of all, in no way I was trolling, I was just participating in a thread about holocaust deniers, and as someone who deeply despises Palestinian genocides, that, is somehow predicated on holocaust, I shared my opinions with other users.
Secondly, I don't know why I'm a whisk away from one month suspension. I've done nothing wrong and have not received a single warning since my last suspension.
Thirdly, the things I said were neither racist or homophobic, nor bigotry. and they didn't need evidence because I wasn't denying holocaust. what I said, was that Holocaust is "refutable" because there has been, as many of you know, political advantages taken out of it, and we can assume that the evidence is made up for the advantage.
If you're provoked by the sentence in my signature, it's pretty obvious that it's for mockery.

That's a logical fallacy if there ever was one. Just because something is used for a certain purpose after the event (if this is indeed the case, but that's a different discussion) it does not follow that the events in question did not take place, or that the numbers, in this case, are incorrect.
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#38  Postby Moridin » May 02, 2010 11:53 am

Holocaust deniers also claim that the there was a conspiracy by Jews to concoct a Holocaust in order to finance the State of Israel. The rationalist reply to this is quite straightforward.

1. The basic facts about the Holocaust were established before the founding of Israel and before it got any money.
2. When the reparations were established, the amount Israel received from Germany was not based on numbers killed but on Israel's cost of taking in and resettling the Jews who fled Germany and German-controlled countries before the war and the survivors of the Holocaust who came to Israel after the war. If reparations were based on the number of survivors, then any conspiracy should have exaggerated the number of survivors, not the number killed. If the Holocaust deniers are right and only a few hundred thousand Jews died, then Germany owes Israel far, far more reparations.
3. Israel as a state was not the recipient of German money as most of it went to individual survivors, not to the Israeli government.
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#39  Postby Moridin » May 02, 2010 12:10 pm

Aurlito wrote:I deeply feel indignation. first of all, in no way I was trolling, I was just participating in a thread about holocaust deniers, and as someone who deeply despises Palestinian genocides, that, is somehow predicated on holocaust, I shared my opinions with other users.
Secondly, I don't know why I'm a whisk away from one month suspension. I've done nothing wrong and have not received a single warning since my last suspension.
Thirdly, the things I said were neither racist or homophobic, nor bigotry. and they didn't need evidence because I wasn't denying holocaust. what I said, was that Holocaust is "refutable" because there has been, as many of you know, political advantages taken out of it, and we can assume that the evidence is made up for the advantage.
If you're provoked by the sentence in my signature, it's pretty obvious that it's for mockery.


Atheists have politically taken advantage of the establishment clause, therefore, according to your logic, the establishment clause is invalid? Pharmaceutical companies have gained from selling medicines (that work), therefore, modern medicine is invalid? Al Gore has gained from the science of climate change, therefore the science of climate change is invalid? Richard Dawkins has gained from selling books about evolution, therefore the evidence for evolution is invalid?

By the way, your strategy is classic passive aggressive; you first make ludicrously odd claims that the evidence for the Holocaust is invalid, they act all hurt and offended when someone calls you on the issue. As have been pointed our, your argument makes some form of the fallacy of irrelevance, perhaps an appeal to consequences.
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Re: Holocaust deniers

#40  Postby Aurlito » May 02, 2010 1:43 pm

Moridin wrote:
Aurlito wrote:I deeply feel indignation. first of all, in no way I was trolling, I was just participating in a thread about holocaust deniers, and as someone who deeply despises Palestinian genocides, that, is somehow predicated on holocaust, I shared my opinions with other users.
Secondly, I don't know why I'm a whisk away from one month suspension. I've done nothing wrong and have not received a single warning since my last suspension.
Thirdly, the things I said were neither racist or homophobic, nor bigotry. and they didn't need evidence because I wasn't denying holocaust. what I said, was that Holocaust is "refutable" because there has been, as many of you know, political advantages taken out of it, and we can assume that the evidence is made up for the advantage.
If you're provoked by the sentence in my signature, it's pretty obvious that it's for mockery.


Atheists have politically taken advantage of the establishment clause, therefore, according to your logic, the establishment clause is invalid? Pharmaceutical companies have gained from selling medicines (that work), therefore, modern medicine is invalid? Al Gore has gained from the science of climate change, therefore the science of climate change is invalid? Richard Dawkins has gained from selling books about evolution, therefore the evidence for evolution is invalid?

By the way, your strategy is classic passive aggressive; you first make ludicrously odd claims that the evidence for the Holocaust is invalid, they act all hurt and offended when someone calls you on the issue. As have been pointed our, your argument makes some form of the fallacy of irrelevance, perhaps an appeal to consequences.

You're obviously using conjunction fallacy. the things that you've listed have nothing to do with my claim, and are totally irrelevant with what I said. as I said, holocaust is "refutable" it means it has potential to be false because "supposedly" the evidence has been planted "for" political advantage "because" most of the evidence has been revealed "after" the start of Jewish settlement. I hope I made myself clear. we have no visual evidence from holocaust, that isn't hazy and improbable. and all the evidence regarding to the holocaust has been revealed way after it happened.
Last edited by Aurlito on May 02, 2010 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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