Hypnosis real or fake

What aspects of hypnosis are real?

Anything that doesn't fit anywhere else below.

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Re: Hypnosis real or fake

#41  Postby Weaver » Jan 06, 2014 11:14 pm

igorfrankensteen wrote:
Funny that a couple of anecdotes are considered "good posts", but requests for rigorous scientific evidence are dismissed as a waste of time.


I didn't see anyone dismiss them as a waste of time. I myself only said that since you are the one claiming it's all fraud, and that the Medical Establishment does not, that as far as I am concerned, it is you who have the burden of the proof. YOU are the one who claims that because you personally have stated that you think it's bunk, that everyone ELSE has to prove otherwise.

All I'm saying is, that that isn't how Science or logic works.

Again, you are conflating hypnosis - the stage magic bullshit - with hypnotherapy, which even the medical establishment says (in the link you provided above) is relaxation therapy mixed with CBT.

You are the one asserting that hypnosis is valid, you have the burden of proof to support that claim - and you still, despite repeated requests, haven't done it.
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Re: Hypnosis real or fake

#42  Postby Weaver » Jan 06, 2014 11:15 pm

THWOTH wrote:
JVRaines wrote:Thanks. Now I'm sitting here in my underwear clucking like a chicken.

No change there then.

:whistle:

See? I TOLD you it didn't work!
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Re: Hypnosis real or fake

#43  Postby igorfrankensteen » Jan 07, 2014 2:19 am

Again, you are conflating hypnosis - the stage magic bullshit - with hypnotherapy


Waaait a minute. Now maybe THIS is the problem. When I say "hypnosis," I am referring to that which Medical science refers to as Hypnosis. If YOU insist that the word "hypnosis" refers only to stage magic tricks, then we haven't even been talking about the same thing. No WONDER you keep demanding proof.

No. There is no way to prove that stage-managed ANYTHING is "real." I wont even vouch for someone sweeping the floor who is playing the part of a janitor in a play, even uses a real broom and real dirt. But then, since that stuff is here for entertainment only, I don't EXPECT anything performed, to be real.

There's no point in debating further, because you've declared only that you don't trust stage magicians to be doing real anything. I ASSUME stage magicians are doing tricks, and using fake stuff to entertain. So if anything, I completely trust that they ARE NOT a part of the scientific community.

Next subject?
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Re: Hypnosis real or fake

#44  Postby Weaver » Jan 07, 2014 6:11 am

Yet you haven't shown that the medical community refers to hypnosis - only to hypnotherapy, which in the link you provided is a combination of relaxation techniques and CBT.

So what do you assert the medical community means by hypnosis, and what supporting evidence in the form of peer-reviewed literature do you have to show how and why it works?

I accept that the psych community thinks hypnotherapy as defined as relaxation and CBT in combination works for pain management, and that it most likely has no special benefit for smoking cessation (with quit rates comparable to support group counseling, better than individual cold turkey, worse than meds like nicotine patches or Chantix), and that it most likely has no effect for anything else. That is what I have gleaned from the info you provided so far - if necessary, I can spell out where I determined this.
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Re: Hypnosis real or fake

#45  Postby igorfrankensteen » Jan 07, 2014 10:03 am

No point. We've established that all there has been to what you've argued with me, is that all along you've been referring to stage tricks, while I've been talking about WHATEVER the medical establishment accepts. This thread is supposed to be about what is real and what isn't about hypnosis, and what it's limits are. You've finally spelled out that although you claimed at first that ALL hypnosis is a fraud, that all you really meant from the beginning was that you think stage shows are fake.

I'm not interested in arguing over semantics or sloppily over-generalized rants.
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Re: Hypnosis real or fake

#46  Postby THWOTH » Jan 07, 2014 12:17 pm

igorfrankensteen wrote:No point. We've established that all there has been to what you've argued with me, is that all along you've been referring to stage tricks, while I've been talking about WHATEVER the medical establishment accepts. This thread is supposed to be about what is real and what isn't about hypnosis, and what it's limits are. You've finally spelled out that although you claimed at first that ALL hypnosis is a fraud, that all you really meant from the beginning was that you think stage shows are fake.

I'm not interested in arguing over semantics or sloppily over-generalized rants.

With reference to hypnosis, what does the medical establishment accept exactly?
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Re: Hypnosis real or fake

#47  Postby Weaver » Jan 07, 2014 2:45 pm

So, Igorfrankenstein, you don't spell out your exact definitions and it's my fault because I discuss all the aspects of it? MY fault that there is confusion over terminology and what exactly is meant, with a word with many meanings depending on who is asked? This is exactly why I asked for supporting evidence - which you still haven't provided - because it enables us to be on a level playing field with no ambiguity as to what's being discussed.
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Re: Hypnosis real or fake

#48  Postby Cthulhu's Trilby » Jan 07, 2014 4:34 pm

Animavore wrote:I remember reading Derren Brown's Tricks of the Mind and even he doubted hypnosis. I must get that book back off my friend.


Yeah, I never quite got to the bottom of what he meant by that. His stage show often relies on there being something in hypnosis but he's an outspoken opponent of charlatans of all kinds.

He makes me think there's something in it.
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Re: Hypnosis real or fake

#49  Postby quas » Jan 07, 2014 5:07 pm

Animavore wrote:I remember reading Derren Brown's Tricks of the Mind and even he doubted hypnosis.

Thread starter should read this book.
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem
those who think alike than those who think differently. -Nietzsche
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Re: Hypnosis real or fake

#50  Postby Weaver » Jan 07, 2014 5:13 pm

Igorfrankensteen, you should also take a look back at the OP - he did not limit hypnosis to hypnotherapy. I was not changing the subject when I mentioned stage tricks.


EDITED to correct username - my apologies, I didn't realize you were using an alternate spelling. No insult intended.
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Re: Hypnosis real or fake

#51  Postby GenesForLife » Jan 07, 2014 8:01 pm

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23617618

Abstract
BACKGROUND:
Gut-directed hypnotherapy can reduce IBS symptoms, but the mechanisms underlying this therapeutic effect remain unknown.
AIM:
To determine the effect of hypnotherapy and educational intervention on brain responses to cued rectal distensions in IBS patients.
METHODS:
Forty-four women with moderate-to-severe IBS and 20 healthy controls (HCs) were included. Blood oxygen level dependent (BOLD) signals were measured by functional Magnetic Resonance Imaging (fMRI) during expectation and delivery of high- (45 mmHg) and low-intensity (15 mmHg) rectal distensions. Twenty-five patients were assigned to hypnotherapy (HYP) and 16 to educational intervention (EDU). Thirty-one patients completed treatments and posttreatment fMRI.
RESULTS:
Similar symptom reduction was achieved in both groups. Clinically successful treatment (all responders) was associated with significant BOLD attenuation during high-intensity distension in the dorsal and ventral anterior insula (cluster size 142, P = 0.006, and cluster size 101, P = 0.005 respectively). Moreover HYP responders demonstrated a pre-post treatment BOLD attenuation in posterior insula (cluster sizes 59, P = 0.05) while EDU responders had a BOLD attenuation in prefrontal cortex (cluster size 60, P = 0.05). Pre-post differences for expectation conditions were almost exclusively seen in the HYP group. Following treatment, the brain response to distension was similar to that observed in HCs, suggesting that the treatment had a normalising effect on the central processing abnormality of visceral signals in IBS.
CONCLUSIONS:
The abnormal processing and enhanced perception of visceral stimuli in IBS can be normalised by psychological interventions. Symptom improvement in the treatment groups may be mediated by different brain mechanisms. Clinical trial number: NCT01815164.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15796641

The additive benefit of hypnosis and cognitive-behavioral therapy in treating acute stress disorder.
Bryant RA, Moulds ML, Guthrie RM, Nixon RD.
Author information
Abstract
This research represents the first controlled treatment study of hypnosis and cognitive- behavioral therapy (CBT) of acute stress disorder (ASD). Civilian trauma survivors (N=87) who met criteria for ASD were randomly allocated to 6 sessions of CBT, CBT combined with hypnosis (CBT-hypnosis), or supportive counseling (SC). CBT comprised exposure, cognitive restructuring, and anxiety management. CBT-hypnosis comprised the CBT components with each imaginal exposure preceded by a hypnotic induction and suggestions to engage fully in the exposure. In terms of treatment completers (n=69), fewer participants in the CBT and CBT-hypnosis groups met criteria for posttraumatic stress disorder at posttreatment and 6-month follow-up than those in the SC group. CBT-hypnosis resulted in greater reduction in reexperiencing symptoms at posttreatment than CBT. These findings suggest that hypnosis may have use in facilitating the treatment effects of CBT for posttraumatic stress.
Copyright (c) 2005 APA, all rights reserved


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15950884


Does 'hypnosis' by any other name smell as sweet? The efficacy of 'hypnotic' inductions depends on the label 'hypnosis'.
Gandhi B, Oakley DA.
Author information
Abstract
Hypnosis is associated with profound changes in conscious experience and is increasingly used as a cognitive tool to explore neuropsychological processes. Studies of this sort typically employ suggestions following a hypnotic induction to produce changes in perceptual experience and motor control. It is not clear, however, to what extent the induction procedure serves to facilitate suggested phenomena. This study investigated the effect on suggestibility of (a) a hypnotic induction and (b) labelling that procedure 'hypnosis.' Suggestibility of participants was tested before and after an adapted hypnotic procedure, which was either labelled as 'hypnosis' or as 'relaxation.' The hypnotic procedure produced a modest increase in suggestibility when it was called 'relaxation,' but a very significant increase if it was labelled 'hypnosis.' The results are important for both clinical and experimental applications and indicate that labelling an induction procedure 'hypnosis' is an important determinant of subsequent responses to suggestion.
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Re: Hypnosis real or fake

#52  Postby igorfrankensteen » Jan 07, 2014 8:17 pm

Weaver wrote:So, Igorfrankenstein, you don't spell out your exact definitions and it's my fault because I discuss all the aspects of it? MY fault that there is confusion over terminology and what exactly is meant, with a word with many meanings depending on who is asked? This is exactly why I asked for supporting evidence - which you still haven't provided - because it enables us to be on a level playing field with no ambiguity as to what's being discussed.


Yup, it's your problem, because you knowingly chose to blanket name all hypnosis as fakery, despite that you knew you only meant stage shows. Thus also, your call for proof is specious, because you were calling for proof that stage shows had been investigated and proven to all be legitimate.

Essentially, you aren't participating in this thread's actual subject matter.

Last response to you from me, unless you join the actual subject matter of the thread.
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Re: Hypnosis real or fake

#53  Postby zoon » Jan 07, 2014 8:56 pm

The NHS website says hypnosis "does seem to have an effect", but it's not particularly enthusiastic:
The NHS wrote:Hypnotherapy is a type of complementary therapy that uses hypnosis, an altered state of consciousness.
Hypnosis is widely promoted as a treatment for various long-term conditions and for breaking certain habits. This is despite the fact there is no strong evidence to support these uses.
However, hypnosis does seem to have an effect, though scientists disagree about how it works. Some experts see it as a relaxation technique that uses the power of suggestion and relies on the placebo effect.
When might it be helpful?

Irritable bowel syndrome

Some research studies have suggested that hypnotherapy may help with the symptoms of irritable bowel syndrome (IBS), such as abdominal pain.
These studies do not provide any strong evidence for its effectiveness, but the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE) has nevertheless recognised hypnotherapy as a possible treatment for IBS (PDF, 191.4kb) in those who haven't responded to other treatments.


The American Psychological Association also refers to hypnosis as a genuine phenomenon, again mentioning usefulness in reducing the symptoms of Irritable Bowel Syndrome:

The APA wrote:
Is there evidence that hypnosis works?
Yes. While there are plenty of examples in the scientific literature attesting to the usefulness of clinical hypnosis, a study published in the journal Gut is noteworthy. The study involved 204 people suffering from Irritable Bowel Syndrome (IBS). Treatment consisted of 12 weekly sessions of hypnosis (lasting about one hour each). Fifty-eight percent of the men and 75 percent of the women reported significant symptom relief immediately after finishing treatment. More than 80 percent of those who reported initial relief were still improved up to six years later. Fewer than 10 percent of the participants tried other treatments after hypnotherapy. (Gut, November 2003).

The reference is to a 2003 study, not the 2013 paper which GenesForLife links to above.
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Re: Hypnosis real or fake

#54  Postby THWOTH » Jan 07, 2014 11:56 pm

"No-one is exempt from speaking nonsense – the only misfortune is to do it solemnly."
Michel de Montaigne, Essais, 1580
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Re: Hypnosis real or fake

#55  Postby Weaver » Jan 07, 2014 11:57 pm

igorfrankensteen wrote:
Weaver wrote:So, Igorfrankenstein, you don't spell out your exact definitions and it's my fault because I discuss all the aspects of it? MY fault that there is confusion over terminology and what exactly is meant, with a word with many meanings depending on who is asked? This is exactly why I asked for supporting evidence - which you still haven't provided - because it enables us to be on a level playing field with no ambiguity as to what's being discussed.


Yup, it's your problem, because you knowingly chose to blanket name all hypnosis as fakery, despite that you knew you only meant stage shows. Thus also, your call for proof is specious, because you were calling for proof that stage shows had been investigated and proven to all be legitimate.

Essentially, you aren't participating in this thread's actual subject matter.

Last response to you from me, unless you join the actual subject matter of the thread.

For fuck's sake, I was responding to the OP, which had nothing at all to do with medical hypnotherapy. YOU are the one who narrowed the field, then tried to declare that it was all about hypnotherapy all along.

Go back and read the OP. Read the final sentence. Hypnosis as therapy was a late addition to a thread otherwise all about stage magic type hypnosis.

Thanks, Genes, for providing some science to examine. I do not understand why it is so hard for a supporter of a supposed widely-accepted medical practice to provide supporting evidence for his claim.
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Re: Hypnosis real or fake

#56  Postby Weaver » Jan 08, 2014 12:04 am

GenesForLife wrote:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23617618

Abstract
BACKGROUND:
Gut-directed hypnotherapy can reduce IBS symptoms, but the mechanisms underlying this therapeutic effect remain unknown.
AIM:
To determine the effect of hypnotherapy and educational intervention on brain responses to cued rectal distensions in IBS patients.
METHODS:
Forty-four women with moderate-to-severe IBS and 20 healthy controls (HCs) were included. Blood oxygen level dependent (BOLD) signals were measured by functional Magnetic Resonance Imaging (fMRI) during expectation and delivery of high- (45 mmHg) and low-intensity (15 mmHg) rectal distensions. Twenty-five patients were assigned to hypnotherapy (HYP) and 16 to educational intervention (EDU). Thirty-one patients completed treatments and posttreatment fMRI.
RESULTS:
Similar symptom reduction was achieved in both groups. Clinically successful treatment (all responders) was associated with significant BOLD attenuation during high-intensity distension in the dorsal and ventral anterior insula (cluster size 142, P = 0.006, and cluster size 101, P = 0.005 respectively). Moreover HYP responders demonstrated a pre-post treatment BOLD attenuation in posterior insula (cluster sizes 59, P = 0.05) while EDU responders had a BOLD attenuation in prefrontal cortex (cluster size 60, P = 0.05). Pre-post differences for expectation conditions were almost exclusively seen in the HYP group. Following treatment, the brain response to distension was similar to that observed in HCs, suggesting that the treatment had a normalising effect on the central processing abnormality of visceral signals in IBS.
CONCLUSIONS:
The abnormal processing and enhanced perception of visceral stimuli in IBS can be normalised by psychological interventions. Symptom improvement in the treatment groups may be mediated by different brain mechanisms. Clinical trial number: NCT01815164.

So this suggests that there is a psychological role in IBS - it does not serve as an indicator that "hypnosis" is any more or less effective than other forms of talk therapy, nor does it provide independant confirmation of efficacy of hypnosis.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15796641

The additive benefit of hypnosis and cognitive-behavioral therapy in treating acute stress disorder.
Bryant RA, Moulds ML, Guthrie RM, Nixon RD.
Author information
Abstract
This research represents the first controlled treatment study of hypnosis and cognitive- behavioral therapy (CBT) of acute stress disorder (ASD). Civilian trauma survivors (N=87) who met criteria for ASD were randomly allocated to 6 sessions of CBT, CBT combined with hypnosis (CBT-hypnosis), or supportive counseling (SC). CBT comprised exposure, cognitive restructuring, and anxiety management. CBT-hypnosis comprised the CBT components with each imaginal exposure preceded by a hypnotic induction and suggestions to engage fully in the exposure. In terms of treatment completers (n=69), fewer participants in the CBT and CBT-hypnosis groups met criteria for posttraumatic stress disorder at posttreatment and 6-month follow-up than those in the SC group. CBT-hypnosis resulted in greater reduction in reexperiencing symptoms at posttreatment than CBT. These findings suggest that hypnosis may have use in facilitating the treatment effects of CBT for posttraumatic stress.
Copyright (c) 2005 APA, all rights reserved

This is more indicative of a benefit to hypnosis - but it simply looks at hypnosis vs no hypnosis, and does not compare, for example, hypnosis vs relaxation training. Good start, but again not a definite confirmation of the efficacy of hypnosis.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15950884


Does 'hypnosis' by any other name smell as sweet? The efficacy of 'hypnotic' inductions depends on the label 'hypnosis'.
Gandhi B, Oakley DA.
Author information
Abstract
Hypnosis is associated with profound changes in conscious experience and is increasingly used as a cognitive tool to explore neuropsychological processes. Studies of this sort typically employ suggestions following a hypnotic induction to produce changes in perceptual experience and motor control. It is not clear, however, to what extent the induction procedure serves to facilitate suggested phenomena. This study investigated the effect on suggestibility of (a) a hypnotic induction and (b) labelling that procedure 'hypnosis.' Suggestibility of participants was tested before and after an adapted hypnotic procedure, which was either labelled as 'hypnosis' or as 'relaxation.' The hypnotic procedure produced a modest increase in suggestibility when it was called 'relaxation,' but a very significant increase if it was labelled 'hypnosis.' The results are important for both clinical and experimental applications and indicate that labelling an induction procedure 'hypnosis' is an important determinant of subsequent responses to suggestion.

And this final one strongly suggests that people are being fooled into a placebo effect due to the title "hypnosis", and that all studies looking at hypnosis need to be on the lookout for false positives due to the labeling effect.

So, in the end, though the medical community may well all believe that hypnosis is real (whatever that means), based on these studies (and from everything else I've looked at) there is not enough to separate out hypnosis from relaxation, and there is a huge placebo effect bias to overcome. More research is certainly needed, but this is far from settled science.
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Re: Hypnosis real or fake

#57  Postby GenesForLife » Jan 08, 2014 1:16 am

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23845031

A female patient with multiple chemical sensitivity and previous anaphylactoid reactions to local anaesthetics was admitted for removal of a thigh skin tumour under hypnosis as sole anaesthesia. The hypnotic protocol included hypnotic focused analgesia and a pre-operative pain threshold test. After inducing hypnosis, a wide excision was performed, preserving the deep fascia, and the tumour was removed; the patient's heart rate and blood pressure did not increase during the procedure. When the patient was de-hypnotised, she reported no pain and was discharged immediately. Our case confirms the efficacy of hypnosis and demonstrates that it may be valuable as a sole anaesthetic method in selected cases. Hypnosis can prevent pain perception and surgical stress as a whole, comparing well with anaesthetic drugs.
© 2013 The Association of Anaesthetists of Great Britain and Ireland.
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Re: Hypnosis real or fake

#58  Postby Weaver » Jan 08, 2014 3:21 am

GenesForLife wrote:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23845031

A female patient with multiple chemical sensitivity and previous anaphylactoid reactions to local anaesthetics was admitted for removal of a thigh skin tumour under hypnosis as sole anaesthesia. The hypnotic protocol included hypnotic focused analgesia and a pre-operative pain threshold test. After inducing hypnosis, a wide excision was performed, preserving the deep fascia, and the tumour was removed; the patient's heart rate and blood pressure did not increase during the procedure. When the patient was de-hypnotised, she reported no pain and was discharged immediately. Our case confirms the efficacy of hypnosis and demonstrates that it may be valuable as a sole anaesthetic method in selected cases. Hypnosis can prevent pain perception and surgical stress as a whole, comparing well with anaesthetic drugs.
© 2013 The Association of Anaesthetists of Great Britain and Ireland.

Single case, not a comparative study. Relaxation techniques have been proven effective for pain management, so I'm not surprised that this "hypnosis" is effective as well - and other literature suggests that hypnotherapy (stated as a combination of relaxation techniques and cognitive-behavioral therapy) were effective for chronic pain management.

Still not an indicator that there's anything to "hypnosis" beyond relaxation techniques.
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Re: Hypnosis real or fake

#59  Postby THWOTH » Jan 08, 2014 3:03 pm

Aye, what we need is articles about hypnosis making people think they're a cat or behaving like an onion. ;)
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Re: Hypnosis real or fake

#60  Postby GenesForLife » Jan 08, 2014 3:59 pm

Weaver wrote:
GenesForLife wrote:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23845031

A female patient with multiple chemical sensitivity and previous anaphylactoid reactions to local anaesthetics was admitted for removal of a thigh skin tumour under hypnosis as sole anaesthesia. The hypnotic protocol included hypnotic focused analgesia and a pre-operative pain threshold test. After inducing hypnosis, a wide excision was performed, preserving the deep fascia, and the tumour was removed; the patient's heart rate and blood pressure did not increase during the procedure. When the patient was de-hypnotised, she reported no pain and was discharged immediately. Our case confirms the efficacy of hypnosis and demonstrates that it may be valuable as a sole anaesthetic method in selected cases. Hypnosis can prevent pain perception and surgical stress as a whole, comparing well with anaesthetic drugs.
© 2013 The Association of Anaesthetists of Great Britain and Ireland.

Single case, not a comparative study. Relaxation techniques have been proven effective for pain management, so I'm not surprised that this "hypnosis" is effective as well - and other literature suggests that hypnotherapy (stated as a combination of relaxation techniques and cognitive-behavioral therapy) were effective for chronic pain management.

Still not an indicator that there's anything to "hypnosis" beyond relaxation techniques.


I'd like to see you demonstrate that bog standard relaxation is, even in isolated cases, as effective as/comparable to anaesthetics.
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