Hypnosis real or fake

What aspects of hypnosis are real?

Anything that doesn't fit anywhere else below.

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Re: Hypnosis real or fake

#61  Postby trubble76 » Jan 08, 2014 4:24 pm

Does hypnotherapy use hypnosis or not? I was under the impression that both the medical and the entertainment versions use hypnosis, is this being disputed or not?
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Re: Hypnosis real or fake

#62  Postby Weaver » Jan 08, 2014 4:28 pm

GenesForLife wrote:
Weaver wrote:
GenesForLife wrote:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23845031

A female patient with multiple chemical sensitivity and previous anaphylactoid reactions to local anaesthetics was admitted for removal of a thigh skin tumour under hypnosis as sole anaesthesia. The hypnotic protocol included hypnotic focused analgesia and a pre-operative pain threshold test. After inducing hypnosis, a wide excision was performed, preserving the deep fascia, and the tumour was removed; the patient's heart rate and blood pressure did not increase during the procedure. When the patient was de-hypnotised, she reported no pain and was discharged immediately. Our case confirms the efficacy of hypnosis and demonstrates that it may be valuable as a sole anaesthetic method in selected cases. Hypnosis can prevent pain perception and surgical stress as a whole, comparing well with anaesthetic drugs.
© 2013 The Association of Anaesthetists of Great Britain and Ireland.

Single case, not a comparative study. Relaxation techniques have been proven effective for pain management, so I'm not surprised that this "hypnosis" is effective as well - and other literature suggests that hypnotherapy (stated as a combination of relaxation techniques and cognitive-behavioral therapy) were effective for chronic pain management.

Still not an indicator that there's anything to "hypnosis" beyond relaxation techniques.


I'd like to see you demonstrate that bog standard relaxation is, even in isolated cases, as effective as/comparable to anaesthetics.

There isn't a lot, just as there isn't a lot for hypnosis. There are a couple studies which showed possible effectiveness, but others found none.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9543031

J Adv Nurs. 1998 Mar;27(3):466-75.
Relaxation techniques for acute pain management: a systematic review.
Seers K, Carroll D.
Author information
Abstract
This review aims to document the effectiveness of relaxation techniques, when used alone for the management of acute pain, after surgery and during procedures. A systematic review of randomized controlled trials (RCTs) was undertaken. Seven studies involving 362 patients were eligible for this review. One hundred and fifty patients received active relaxation as the sole intervention. Reports were sought by searching MEDLINE, psycLIT, CINAHL, and the Oxford Pain Relief Database. The outcome measures used were pain and psychological factors. A meta-analysis was not possible, due to lack of primary data. Three of the seven studies demonstrated significantly less pain sensation and or pain distress in those who had relaxation. Four studies did not detect any difference. There was some weak evidence to support the use of relaxation in acute pain. However, this was not conclusive and many of both the positive and the negative studies suffered from methodological inadequacies. Well designed and executed randomized controlled trials are needed before the clinical use of relaxation in acute pain management can be firmly underpinned by good quality research evidence. Until this evidence is available we recommend that the clinical use of relaxation in acute pain settings is carefully evaluated and not used as the main treatment for the management of acute pain.


More, and more rigorous, studies are needed - but it appears there are at least as many anecdotal / isolated cases with effectiveness for both hypnosis and relaxation. All are low-number values, which could of course be due to a large number of other causes.
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Re: Hypnosis real or fake

#63  Postby Aern Rakesh » Jan 08, 2014 4:32 pm

trubble76 wrote:Does hypnotherapy use hypnosis or not? I was under the impression that both the medical and the entertainment versions use hypnosis, is this being disputed or not?


Hypnotherapists use all kinds of techniques, e.g. NLP and various relaxation/meditation techniques. I know a hypnotherapist who puts smokers through intense questioning before she'll take them on because unless they are determined to give up there's nothing she can do, no 'post-hypnotic' magic spell that will help.
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Re: Hypnosis real or fake

#64  Postby GenesForLife » Jan 08, 2014 5:20 pm

I'm sorry, Weaver, but that study has nowt to do with anaesthesia.
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Re: Hypnosis real or fake

#65  Postby trubble76 » Jan 08, 2014 5:26 pm

Aern Rakesh wrote:
trubble76 wrote:Does hypnotherapy use hypnosis or not? I was under the impression that both the medical and the entertainment versions use hypnosis, is this being disputed or not?


Hypnotherapists use all kinds of techniques, e.g. NLP and various relaxation/meditation techniques. I know a hypnotherapist who puts smokers through intense questioning before she'll take them on because unless they are determined to give up there's nothing she can do, no 'post-hypnotic' magic spell that will help.


Could you clarify for me, I didn't quite get your answer. Are you saying that the hypnotherapists do use hypnosis or not?
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Re: Hypnosis real or fake

#66  Postby Weaver » Jan 08, 2014 5:26 pm

GenesForLife wrote:I'm sorry, Weaver, but that study has nowt to do with anaesthesia.

From the abstract I posted above:

his review aims to document the effectiveness of relaxation techniques, when used alone for the management of acute pain, after surgery and during procedures.


It is just as relevant to anesthesia as the single-case-study you posted.
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Re: Hypnosis real or fake

#67  Postby THWOTH » Jan 08, 2014 5:43 pm

I wouldn't volunteer for a trial like that. if someone's going to slice me open and root around I don't want to know anything about it.
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Re: Hypnosis real or fake

#68  Postby Agrippina » Jan 08, 2014 5:56 pm

THWOTH wrote:I wouldn't volunteer for a trial like that. if someone's going to slice me open and root around I don't want to know anything about it.


I have a pathological fear of general anaesthetics so when I needed to have my lady parts removed, I opted for a spinal one. I passed out because I didn't like the feeling of my innards being moved around. Now I regret that I didn't ask them to remove my appendix while I was in there because now it's complaining and I'm going to have to deal with that fear again. I don't think I'd have the nerve to try hypnosis. I'm going to have to go through the whole "I'll die under a GA" discussion again. :nono:
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Re: Hypnosis real or fake

#69  Postby THWOTH » Jan 08, 2014 6:01 pm

Agrippina wrote:
THWOTH wrote:I wouldn't volunteer for a trial like that. if someone's going to slice me open and root around I don't want to know anything about it.


I have a pathological fear of general anaesthetics so when I needed to have my lady parts removed, I opted for a spinal one. I passed out because I didn't like the feeling of my innards being moved around. Now I regret that I didn't ask them to remove my appendix while I was in there because now it's complaining and I'm going to have to deal with that fear again. I don't think I'd have the nerve to try hypnosis. I'm going to have to go through the whole "I'll die under a GA" discussion again. :nono:

Things have moved on apace though Aggie. My daughter had her bloated appendix removed by keyhole surgery two years ago, and was left with three small incisions and was able to go surfing two weeks after. Ask for a strong sedative and a local and you wont notice a thing, or even care - it'l be fine. :hugs:
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Re: Hypnosis real or fake

#70  Postby Weaver » Jan 08, 2014 6:02 pm

I don't think anyone has suggested hypnosis or relaxation in place of general anesthesia - only for management of local pain associated with superficial procedures.
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Re: Hypnosis real or fake

#71  Postby Agrippina » Jan 08, 2014 6:03 pm

Weaver wrote:I don't think anyone has suggested hypnosis or relaxation in place of general anesthesia - only for management of local pain associated with superficial procedures.


OK, that's fine then. I can stop worrying about that suggestion then. :thumbup:
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Re: Hypnosis real or fake

#72  Postby Weaver » Jan 08, 2014 6:04 pm

THWOTH wrote:
Agrippina wrote:
THWOTH wrote:I wouldn't volunteer for a trial like that. if someone's going to slice me open and root around I don't want to know anything about it.


I have a pathological fear of general anaesthetics so when I needed to have my lady parts removed, I opted for a spinal one. I passed out because I didn't like the feeling of my innards being moved around. Now I regret that I didn't ask them to remove my appendix while I was in there because now it's complaining and I'm going to have to deal with that fear again. I don't think I'd have the nerve to try hypnosis. I'm going to have to go through the whole "I'll die under a GA" discussion again. :nono:

Things have moved on apace though Aggie. My daughter had her bloated appendix removed by keyhole surgery two years ago, and was left with three small incisions and was able to go surfing two weeks after. Ask for a strong sedative and a local and you wont notice a thing, or even care - it'l be fine. :hugs:

Indeed - a combination of laparoscopic surgery, local anesthetics, and some quite lovely amnesiac agents like Versed administered with a narcotic like Fentanyl can mean that you aren't totally anesthetized, but have overall sedation and no memory of the event, though you are a little conscious throughout.
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Re: Hypnosis real or fake

#73  Postby THWOTH » Jan 08, 2014 6:07 pm

Weaver wrote:I don't think anyone has suggested hypnosis or relaxation in place of general anesthesia - only for management of local pain associated with superficial procedures.

Phew. Personally I found that what I call 'attitude adjustment' after surgery -- and I've had a fair bit in recent years -- does help with pain. It doesn't diminish it exactly but it makes it easier to deal with, putting it in the background rather than having it occupy the foreground as it were.

I know, anecdote is anecdote.
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Re: Hypnosis real or fake

#74  Postby Aern Rakesh » Jan 08, 2014 6:20 pm

trubble76 wrote:
Aern Rakesh wrote:
trubble76 wrote:Does hypnotherapy use hypnosis or not? I was under the impression that both the medical and the entertainment versions use hypnosis, is this being disputed or not?


Hypnotherapists use all kinds of techniques, e.g. NLP and various relaxation/meditation techniques. I know a hypnotherapist who puts smokers through intense questioning before she'll take them on because unless they are determined to give up there's nothing she can do, no 'post-hypnotic' magic spell that will help.


Could you clarify for me, I didn't quite get your answer. Are you saying that the hypnotherapists do use hypnosis or not?


Sorry, Trubb, yes, they do use it: http://www.lcch.co.uk/hypnotherapy.htm

But what I was saying was that for certain situations (e.g. giving up smoking) the client has to have a strong conscious will to do that. There's no fast "You'll wake up and you won't ever want to smoke again!" solution. At least according to my hypnotherapist friend there isn't.
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Re: Hypnosis real or fake

#75  Postby Agrippina » Jan 08, 2014 6:23 pm

THWOTH wrote:
Agrippina wrote:
THWOTH wrote:I wouldn't volunteer for a trial like that. if someone's going to slice me open and root around I don't want to know anything about it.


I have a pathological fear of general anaesthetics so when I needed to have my lady parts removed, I opted for a spinal one. I passed out because I didn't like the feeling of my innards being moved around. Now I regret that I didn't ask them to remove my appendix while I was in there because now it's complaining and I'm going to have to deal with that fear again. I don't think I'd have the nerve to try hypnosis. I'm going to have to go through the whole "I'll die under a GA" discussion again. :nono:

Things have moved on apace though Aggie. My daughter had her bloated appendix removed by keyhole surgery two years ago, and was left with three small incisions and was able to go surfing two weeks after. Ask for a strong sedative and a local and you wont notice a thing, or even care - it'l be fine. :hugs:


My mother was living with us at the time, and in the throes of dementia, she overturned her commode all over the carpet outside the bathroom, while I was in hospital. I returned two days after my surgery to the smell of stale urine permeating through the house out to the space where we parked the car. I collected a bucket, got down on my hands and knees and scrubbed until the smell was gone - two days after a hysterectomy. Luckily I didn't hurt anything but it was pretty dramatic. Then my mum came out the bedroom and asked where I'd been, "there have been no nurses here to take care of me for days, I've had to look after myself, which is why I spilled the bucket." I tried to explain but she wasn't interested, just pleased that her nurse had come back to take care of her, so not very much bed rest for me after that.

I'm seeing the doc on Monday. More on my appendix after that. :thumbup:
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Re: Hypnosis real or fake

#76  Postby Agrippina » Jan 08, 2014 6:26 pm

Weaver wrote:
THWOTH wrote:
Agrippina wrote:
THWOTH wrote:I wouldn't volunteer for a trial like that. if someone's going to slice me open and root around I don't want to know anything about it.


I have a pathological fear of general anaesthetics so when I needed to have my lady parts removed, I opted for a spinal one. I passed out because I didn't like the feeling of my innards being moved around. Now I regret that I didn't ask them to remove my appendix while I was in there because now it's complaining and I'm going to have to deal with that fear again. I don't think I'd have the nerve to try hypnosis. I'm going to have to go through the whole "I'll die under a GA" discussion again. :nono:

Things have moved on apace though Aggie. My daughter had her bloated appendix removed by keyhole surgery two years ago, and was left with three small incisions and was able to go surfing two weeks after. Ask for a strong sedative and a local and you wont notice a thing, or even care - it'l be fine. :hugs:

Indeed - a combination of laparoscopic surgery, local anesthetics, and some quite lovely amnesiac agents like Versed administered with a narcotic like Fentanyl can mean that you aren't totally anesthetized, but have overall sedation and no memory of the event, though you are a little conscious throughout.


What was great after my surgery was that I was chatting away immediately after it. When they wheeled me back to the ward, my DH thought they hadn't done anything to me, because apart from being a little sleepy I wasn't even in any pain. And I didn't have much pain anyway, not as much as after a hernia repair I'd had done under a GA ten years earlier.
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Re: Hypnosis real or fake

#77  Postby GenesForLife » Jan 09, 2014 12:54 am

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-news ... on-2232873

Looks like there have been recent recorded incidents of people having major surgery without general anaesthetic.
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Re: Hypnosis real or fake

#78  Postby Weaver » Jan 09, 2014 1:05 am

Interesting anecdote. It would be even more interesting if he could teach others to do it.
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Re: Hypnosis real or fake

#79  Postby THWOTH » Jan 09, 2014 1:43 am

Of course, one has to remember that safe general anaesthetics are a relatively recent invention. Major surgery used to be achieved with the aid of hooch and a stout stick to bite on. Fancy having your leg sawn off when you'd had a skin full? *shudder*
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Re: Hypnosis real or fake

#80  Postby FBM » Jan 09, 2014 1:49 am

I find it interesting that nobody knows how general anesthetics work. As for me, I find the experience very interesting. I look forward to having general anesthesia. It's a chance to witness the elimination and restarting of consciousness.

Anyway, people have tried to hypnotize me, but it never worked. I have a feeling that if it were a reliable alternative to chemical anesthesia, it would have been capitalized on by now, seeing as how many people have (sometimes fatal) reactions against general anesthetics. Sorry I don't have any studies to offer.
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