Hypnosis real or fake

What aspects of hypnosis are real?

Anything that doesn't fit anywhere else below.

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Hypnosis real or fake

#1  Postby Rhubis » Dec 27, 2013 4:55 am

I've dabbled in hypnosis myself. I've done some of the simple mind tricks like made people lose their balance, be unable to open their eyes or be unable to separate their hands (not technically real hypnosis since its just making use of involuntary muscle effects). But I've started to wonder, how far does suggestion actually go? I can't be hypnotized (probably since i know a lot of the tricks) so I don't know what its like to have even the basic tricks affect me.

Even when I've done these tricks on other people and they have worked perfectly I've questioned in my own mind if they are really working or if the person is playing along to some extent (a kind of instant stooge, when I've asked they've always denied it). I know that some people play along with stage hypnotists and others swear that they were really hypnotized.

Basically my question is: What actually works with hypnosis and what is just instant stooge, magic trick bullshit? And does hypnosis as therapy work at all?
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Re: Hypnosis real or fake

#2  Postby quas » Dec 27, 2013 6:50 am

Obviously, to comply to hypnotic commands, one must be willing. Otherwise we could have effectively ended all dictatorships (Saddam, Gaddafi, Castro, Kim Jong il, etc) by simply sending hypnotists disguised as ambassadors.

"What actually works with hypnosis and what is just instant stooge, magic trick bullshit?"
Have to test the limits here. But how would you go about doing this? I can only think of extreme examples eg: getting a normal well-adjusted person to commit suicide.
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Re: Hypnosis real or fake

#3  Postby Animavore » Dec 27, 2013 12:21 pm

I remember reading Derren Brown's Tricks of the Mind and even he doubted hypnosis. I must get that book back off my friend.
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Re: Hypnosis real or fake

#4  Postby igorfrankensteen » Dec 27, 2013 12:29 pm

Clearly the question isn't whether it's real or not. Only what it's limits are.
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Re: Hypnosis real or fake

#5  Postby Rhubis » Dec 27, 2013 1:43 pm

igorfrankensteen wrote:Clearly the question isn't whether it's real or not. Only what it's limits are.


True. I'm not saying that i think all hypnosis is fake since there is plenty of evidence that words and phrases can mess with peoples brains. Thats what makes questions like this really hard to answer. Saying magic isn't real is easy but if you know some people can really make small objects disappear then the larger magic tricks become harder to disprove.

Something i've heard that made me really skeptical is this from Paul McKenna:

"Let me give you one example of my recent work in New York. Patricia was a high-flying business executive who had put off having a child for many years because her career came first. Now the biological clock had clicked in and she desperately wanted a baby, but she could not get pregnant.

There was no physical reason for her infertility, and I soon came to realise that she had simply done a fine job of selfhypnosis, programming her body to reject pregnancy.

I re-hypnotised her to switch that part of her body back on, and within a couple of months she was pregnant and now has twins."

Its one thing to convince someone that they aren't feeling pain (using hypnosis in place of anesthetic) but this makes it sound like hypnosis could be used to 'turn off' someones kidneys... This would be one hell of a murder mystery.
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Re: Hypnosis real or fake

#6  Postby Animavore » Dec 27, 2013 1:52 pm

Rhubis wrote:"Let me give you one example of my recent work in New York. Patricia was a high-flying business executive who had put off having a child for many years because her career came first. Now the biological clock had clicked in and she desperately wanted a baby, but she could not get pregnant.

There was no physical reason for her infertility, and I soon came to realise that she had simply done a fine job of selfhypnosis, programming her body to reject pregnancy.

I re-hypnotised her to switch that part of her body back on, and within a couple of months she was pregnant and now has twins."


:what:

Rhubis wrote:
Its one thing to convince someone that they aren't feeling pain (using hypnosis in place of anesthetic)


I doubt even that to be honest.

Rhubis wrote: but this makes it sound like hypnosis could be used to 'turn off' someones kidneys... This would be one hell of a murder mystery.


Don't give me ideas.
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Re: Hypnosis real or fake

#7  Postby Weaver » Dec 27, 2013 2:15 pm

igorfrankensteen wrote:Clearly the question isn't whether it's real or not. Only what it's limits are.

That is not clear at all. Hypnosis could well be (most likely, IMO) simply individuals complying with silliness because they think it's expected, not because there is any actual hypnotic alteration in mental status or ability to implant commands.
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Re: Hypnosis real or fake

#8  Postby quas » Dec 27, 2013 4:13 pm

Rhubis wrote:Something i've heard that made me really skeptical is this from Paul McKenna:

"Let me give you one example of my recent work in New York. Patricia was a high-flying business executive who had put off having a child for many years because her career came first. Now the biological clock had clicked in and she desperately wanted a baby, but she could not get pregnant.

There was no physical reason for her infertility, and I soon came to realise that she had simply done a fine job of selfhypnosis, programming her body to reject pregnancy.

I re-hypnotised her to switch that part of her body back on, and within a couple of months she was pregnant and now has twins."


Is it just me? After reading this, I am thinking that Patricia actually had sex with Paul during their encounter, either during or after the hypno-sessions. The reason Paul succeeded where Patricia's other partner has failed could simply be because the other partner is infertile.
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Re: Hypnosis real or fake

#9  Postby igorfrankensteen » Dec 27, 2013 5:57 pm

There is plenty of evidence that indirectly supports hypnosis and it's apparent uses. The Placebo effect is similar, as are the many cases where people have been known to drive their own health down, simply because they are convinced that they are in decline.

Everyone I've met who insists that hypnosis is complete bollocks, has actually done so because they don't believe in magic, AND, they have closed their minds to the possibility that the effects of hypnosis can be anything OTHER than magic.

I an certain that hypnosis works for non-magical reasons, and that it has limitations which correlate to it's entirely non-magic mechanisms. What exactly they are I don't know, because I do not have a doctorate in Human Physiology, and have not built on such a decade of study, by investigating the exact details of how consciously controllable body functions can include things that we wouldn't normally think of as voluntary, such as digestion.
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Re: Hypnosis real or fake

#10  Postby Weaver » Dec 30, 2013 12:05 am

Post the evidence. Double-blind study published in a reputible journal. Don't just accuse doubters of being close-minded, or I'll quote Tim Minchin at you.
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Re: Hypnosis real or fake

#11  Postby igorfrankensteen » Dec 30, 2013 2:23 am

I don't have a dog in the fight. I don't care if you want to pretend that everyone who has ever been hypnotized is in on a scam.

Since hypnotism IS established, if you want to call for double-blind studies, you should go ahead and do that. Show everyone the studies that show that it never works.
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Re: Hypnosis real or fake

#12  Postby Weaver » Dec 31, 2013 11:57 am

Yet hypnotism is NOT established. It is just claimed.
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Re: Hypnosis real or fake

#13  Postby igorfrankensteen » Dec 31, 2013 1:06 pm

Read this Wiki entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnotherapy

It shows that hypnosis is accepted by a number of national medical authorities. YOU are the one making claims against what IS clearly an established and authoritatively supported treatment. Therefore YOU have the burden of proof for your rather outrageous claim that everyone is working a scam.
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Re: Hypnosis real or fake

#14  Postby catbasket » Jan 01, 2014 5:00 pm

And this Wiki entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy ... prevalence

Shows that homeopathy is accepted by a number of national medical authorities. It's still only water.



Edit: that was supposed to be a preview, not submit. I'll leave the half thought as it is.
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Re: Hypnosis real or fake

#15  Postby pelfdaddy » Jan 01, 2014 6:13 pm

When an outsider, or a non-pentacostal Christian, visits a pentacostal church, they are--merely by the act of attendance--complicit in what is about to take place. They take note of the friendly people, the family environment, and wonder "whether I am missing something in my life..."

This complicity is encouraged by psychology as the music, the atmosphere of energetic worship, create a powerful feeling of love and acceptance. Participation is clearly expected, and shyness is characterized as Sinful Pride, so the newly initiated join in until just playing along becomes genuine excitement.

Psychological manipulation is then joined by physiology, as the congregation stands and sings for up to forty-five emotional minutes; the music speeding up and slowing down, rousing choruses being repeated again and again, beautiful praise music being sung aloud by hundreds of people in communion together. One might remain standing with knees locked and arms upraised for an extended period; there are changes in blood pressure, pulse rate, and circulation to the extremities, and breathing is shallow.

The subject is now highly "suggestible". An invitation is given to all those who "want something from God" (be it salvation, healing, The Holy Spirit, etc.) to come to the front. The person walks the aisle, feeling numb and surreal, almost in a mild trance. Everyone in the immediate area is babbling unintelligibly and loudly. The subject is exhorted by a handler to "pray and worship God out loud but not in English". Muttered sounds emerge from the lips, and soon the individual feels no embarrassment but is confident (surrounded by the cover of noise from others) to raise their own volume and essentially copy those around him or her.

This is when the preacher approaches. The person praying aloud has their eyes closed and is feeling almost nothing, and therefore does not realize the preacher has just placed a hand on their forehead and gently pushed them to the floor where they are let down softly by "catchers". They open their eyes and are staring at the ceiling. They remain convinced for decades that they both "spoke in tongues" and were "slain in the Spirit".

You may wish to term this hypnosis, or Mind Control. I call it socio-psychological manipulation. It has worked on millions of average people. As a Christian, I saw this happen to hundreds of individuals, and upon becoming a minister, decided I would never resort to such tactics. In my entire career as a preacher, avoiding the use of such strategies, I never once succeeded in facilitating another person in "getting filled with the Holy Ghost".

Not once. So not only does it seem to work when employed, but its influence is equally convincing in the lack of results obtained in its absence.
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Re: Hypnosis real or fake

#16  Postby THWOTH » Jan 01, 2014 6:34 pm

There's no difference between being hypnotised and pretending to be hypnotised.
"No-one is exempt from speaking nonsense – the only misfortune is to do it solemnly."
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Re: Hypnosis real or fake

#17  Postby igorfrankensteen » Jan 01, 2014 6:58 pm

Zero progress here, I see. Still nothing but accusations by those who want to claim that hypnotism never actually occurs.

Anyone have anything pertinent to the only valid side of this? What it's limits are?
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Re: Hypnosis real or fake

#18  Postby Weaver » Jan 01, 2014 8:47 pm

igorfrankensteen wrote:Read this Wiki entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnotherapy

It shows that hypnosis is accepted by a number of national medical authorities. YOU are the one making claims against what IS clearly an established and authoritatively supported treatment. Therefore YOU have the burden of proof for your rather outrageous claim that everyone is working a scam.

The research cited here equates hypnosis to relaxation therapy with respect to pain management. That does not mean that hypnosis is an actual phenomenon, or that people can be hypnotized to perform implanted suggestions.

You seem to have a serious misunderstanding of the burden of proof - it is not up to me to prove hypnosis does not work, it is up to you as a believer to prove it does. You haven't done so - and neither has anyone else. In your one attempt, you didn't even provide anything regarding hypnosis - instead, you moved the goalposts to discuss hypnotherapy.

Here's the Wiki entry on hypnosis - notice the utter lack of rigorous research?
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Re: Hypnosis real or fake

#19  Postby igorfrankensteen » Jan 01, 2014 8:54 pm

Again, you are refusing to accept genuine references, and your only refutation consists of prevaricating about word definitions, making false statements about other people, and repeating your entirely unsupported statement of your personal disbelief.

No point in arguing further with you here, since you are not using logic or facts to do so.

If you want to believe that hypnosis never happens, I really don't care.
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Re: Hypnosis real or fake

#20  Postby Weaver » Jan 01, 2014 8:56 pm

What genuine references? You haven't provided anything about hypnosis - only the tangentially related hypnotherapy, which is a combination of relaxation techniques and cognitive-behavioral therapy.
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