"I am you" nonsense

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Re: "I am you" nonsense

#41  Postby cavarka9 » Mar 01, 2015 6:22 pm

not again!
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Re: "I am you" nonsense

#42  Postby laklak » Mar 01, 2015 6:27 pm

It bears repeating.

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Re: "I am you" nonsense

#43  Postby Alan B » Mar 01, 2015 6:43 pm

laklak wrote:It's actually more complex than that. In fact, I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together.

Ah! So that's what our PM Cameron meant when he said, "We are all in it together..."
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Re: "I am you" nonsense

#44  Postby Steve » Mar 01, 2015 8:05 pm

So who's been naughty, then?
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Re: "I am you" nonsense

#45  Postby monkeybones » May 02, 2016 11:34 am

Arjan Dirkse wrote:There is no absolute "you" or "me", but there is a relative you and me. In Buddhism this is the distinction between ultimate truth and the truth of "worldly convention".

Our identities only exist as ever changing streams of consciousness and memories, out of which we create an abstract self. There is nothing you can point at specificially and say "that is me," our identities are artificial constructs, and what delineates our identities is also artificial.


What do you mean by "ever changing"? What is the proof?
Things may be somehow changing in my brain, but they definitely doesn't change 'me'. My DNA, memories, learned skills, competencies, preferences, blood type, lost body parts and a billion other things are remarkably static in ME.

And 'I' when I was born is the same 'I' from what I am now. Only things inside me changed, I never changed. I am the stillness in myself.
Picasso can't be Einstein. Picasso is Picasso, the 'you' in picasso is picasso. Doesn't matter how much changes he can do in his brain by taking nootropics or whatever, Picasso would still be the 'you' Picasso.

And Buddhism doesn't tell that identity is not real. but that You as you think you are is an illusion, because the true self is yourself. That self which never changed. Which is not influenced by others.
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Re: "I am you" nonsense

#46  Postby THWOTH » May 02, 2016 12:20 pm

Sounds like a lot of 'first you have to want to believe' mumbo-jumbo to me.
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Re: "I am you" nonsense

#47  Postby ScholasticSpastic » May 02, 2016 3:03 pm

monkeybones wrote:
And 'I' when I was born is the same 'I' from what I am now. Only things inside me changed, I never changed. I am the stillness in myself.
Picasso can't be Einstein. Picasso is Picasso, the 'you' in picasso is picasso. Doesn't matter how much changes he can do in his brain by taking nootropics or whatever, Picasso would still be the 'you' Picasso.

And Buddhism doesn't tell that identity is not real. but that You as you think you are is an illusion, because the true self is yourself. That self which never changed. Which is not influenced by others.

I don't even know that these sentences can mean anything.
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Re: "I am you" nonsense

#48  Postby laklak » May 02, 2016 4:28 pm

We All Abide, Man.

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The sky is falling! The sky is falling! - Chicken Little
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Re: "I am you" nonsense

#49  Postby monkeybones » May 02, 2016 4:36 pm

ScholasticSpastic wrote:
monkeybones wrote:
And 'I' when I was born is the same 'I' from what I am now. Only things inside me changed, I never changed. I am the stillness in myself.
Picasso can't be Einstein. Picasso is Picasso, the 'you' in picasso is picasso. Doesn't matter how much changes he can do in his brain by taking nootropics or whatever, Picasso would still be the 'you' Picasso.

And Buddhism doesn't tell that identity is not real. but that You as you think you are is an illusion, because the true self is yourself. That self which never changed. Which is not influenced by others.

I don't even know that these sentences can mean anything.


It means I am me , and I never changed. what the fuck "ever changing stream of consciousness" even means?
can Picasso wake up as Picasso and the next year wake up as Einstein? This is stupid. Picasso can't change into a fool , into a sheep, If he is Picasso, his true self, he himself can't change. doesn't matter what the mood he is in one year and in another, what type of memories he is now experiecing, he never changed. he is himself.
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Re: "I am you" nonsense

#50  Postby ScholasticSpastic » May 02, 2016 4:42 pm

You never changed? Your perspective never altered? You never learned new things? Your hormones always pumped through your system at the same concentrations? Your temperament is unaltered since birth? What didn't change? What is "you?" If you don't define what "you" is, then you cannot by any stretch of the imagination assert that "you" hasn't changed.

I agree that you have always felt like the same person to yourself, but I would debate any claim that this feeling has any basis in reality.
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Re: "I am you" nonsense

#51  Postby kiore » May 03, 2016 12:07 am

monkeybones wrote:
ScholasticSpastic wrote:
monkeybones wrote:
And 'I' when I was born is the same 'I' from what I am now. Only things inside me changed, I never changed. I am the stillness in myself.
Picasso can't be Einstein. Picasso is Picasso, the 'you' in picasso is picasso. Doesn't matter how much changes he can do in his brain by taking nootropics or whatever, Picasso would still be the 'you' Picasso.

And Buddhism doesn't tell that identity is not real. but that You as you think you are is an illusion, because the true self is yourself. That self which never changed. Which is not influenced by others.

I don't even know that these sentences can mean anything.


It means I am me , and I never changed. what the fuck "ever changing stream of consciousness" even means?
can Picasso wake up as Picasso and the next year wake up as Einstein? This is stupid. Picasso can't change into a fool , into a sheep, If he is Picasso, his true self, he himself can't change. doesn't matter what the mood he is in one year and in another, what type of memories he is now experiecing, he never changed. he is himself.


I believe you when you say you never change :roll:
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Re: "I am you" nonsense

#52  Postby igorfrankensteen » May 03, 2016 1:52 am

I realized a while back now, that I can't count on me not to be a fucking jerk about me.

I'm me. Right now I'm me. That asshole who promised to mow the lawn today at five thirty, that was another asshole entirely, who was too lazy or "busy" to mow the lawn back then, so he tagged ME to do it for him.

Screw that.

Yeah, sure I have a clear memory of looking out from inside the head that made that promise. I remember when I was that jerk. I know all about him. If the law comes looking for him for something, I'll pretend to be the same guy, not because I am, but because I know that's the most common way that a majority of people (especially in the power structure) like to view everything.

No, I'm not even technically crazy. I just know that everything NOW, is not the same as anything THEN.

No, this isn't some sort of conceptual mind game, this is what's actually true. We jointly agree most of the time, to pretend that what's real now, is the same thing that was real a little while ago, and that time didn't change it that much.

But it did. Every god damned thing in the entire fucking universe is a second older than it was a second ago. EVERYTHING.


It's momentous, but almost no one appreciates it.

And in all that incredible but true energy-packed, explosive reality, some people still think they have to LOOK for crap to complain about, like the poor schlub from last week, who made the mistake of typing into a public space, that he had experienced a partial recognition of how the universe really IS all always in transition, always touching itself, and always something other than what it was a moment before, and that in some vague and unimportant but occasionally informative sense, everything in it is the same as everything else.

And after all this silly chat, the most worthwhile question about it all remains unanswered.
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Re: "I am you" nonsense

#53  Postby GrahamH » May 03, 2016 7:55 am

monkeybones wrote:Picasso can't change into a fool , into a sheep, If he is Picasso, his true self, he himself can't change. doesn't matter what the mood he is in one year and in another, what type of memories he is now experiecing, he never changed. he is himself.


I have to wonder, what makes Picasso Picasso?
Why do you think that?
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Re: "I am you" nonsense

#54  Postby jamest » May 03, 2016 1:07 pm

There is a good possibility that all the physical universe has the same underlying essence, so I'm not sure why that seems like a terrible idea for life/mind/consciousness.
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Re: "I am you" nonsense

#55  Postby THWOTH » May 03, 2016 2:42 pm

I think one has to distinguish between the imaginable possibility and the actual probability of something like that to give it any kind of rational weight or force. Sure, it's a nice idea, but then again so is flying to work like Superman or going back to when you were 14 with everything you know now.
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Re: "I am you" nonsense

#56  Postby laklak » May 03, 2016 2:58 pm

Make that 18 and I'll take you up on it. I'd rather have my fingernails pulled out with pliers than go back to middle school.
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Re: "I am you" nonsense

#57  Postby Boyle » May 03, 2016 3:44 pm

jamest wrote:There is a good possibility that all the physical universe has the same underlying essence, so I'm not sure why that seems like a terrible idea for life/mind/consciousness.

You really better hope not 'cause being the shitheaded tinkerers we are once we find it we're gonna wreak some havoc. Totalitarianism will never look better than when you can tweak the consciousness weave and make everyone believe you.
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Re: "I am you" nonsense

#58  Postby jamest » May 03, 2016 3:55 pm

From what I hear, only the good find it. ;)
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Re: "I am you" nonsense

#59  Postby Boyle » May 03, 2016 4:04 pm

Yeah, but what's a better outcome than human unity and the end of war and hunger and disease? All achievable through a bit of weave tweaking. Sounds to me like the good would jump at that.
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Re: "I am you" nonsense

#60  Postby GrahamH » May 03, 2016 4:18 pm

jamest wrote:There is a good possibility that all the physical universe has the same underlying essence, so I'm not sure why that seems like a terrible idea for life/mind/consciousness.


Who are you replying to?

Monkey Bones seems very concerned with personal identity:

Picasso can't be Einstein. Picasso is Picasso, the 'you' in picasso is picasso. Doesn't matter how much changes he can do in his brain by taking nootropics or whatever, Picasso would still be the 'you' Picasso.



That's the opposite of your view, where there is no essential difference between you and Einstein.
What, for Monkey Bones sake, do you think makes jamest jamest and not Picasso?
Why do you think that?
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