Is "Islamophobic" a nonsensical term?

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Re: Is "Islamophobic" a nonsensical term?

#61  Postby jez9999 » Nov 23, 2013 10:34 am

SafeAsMilk wrote:Essentially what you're saying is that unless a person follows a literal-as-bricks interpretation of their scriptures, they aren't a real follower. This, obviously, is bullshit.

I'm saying that that's what MUSLIMS say. If you can find examples of Muslims saying otherwise I'd be interested.
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Re: Is "Islamophobic" a nonsensical term?

#62  Postby SafeAsMilk » Nov 23, 2013 6:33 pm

jez9999 wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:Essentially what you're saying is that unless a person follows a literal-as-bricks interpretation of their scriptures, they aren't a real follower. This, obviously, is bullshit.

I'm saying that that's what MUSLIMS say. If you can find examples of Muslims saying otherwise I'd be interested.

You should check out the Sufi's, for a start. As I mentioned, since there are different sects following from the same text, there is apparently room for interpretation in the texts.
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Re: Is "Islamophobic" a nonsensical term?

#63  Postby Imagination Theory » Nov 24, 2013 2:16 am

Matthew Shute wrote:
Irrelevant to the point under discussion, which is whether the term "Islamophobia" is nonsensical.


Not entirely, Jez. You were arguing that a blanket fear of Islam or the Quran is rational. I'm questioning the utility of fear, even where it may be justified. Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see all religion destroyed tomorrow; I just doubt that fear is a rational way to go about challenging religions.

I do agree that the term, Islamophobia, is often used simply as a way to dismiss critics without dealing with the criticism.


It is indeed, however there really are people afraid of Islam because they are brown, foreign and don't believe in Jesus.
Я пью за разоренный дом,
За злую жизнь мою,
За одиночество вдвоем,
И за тебя я пью, -
За ложь меня предавших губ,
За мертвый холод глаз,
За то, что мир жесток и груб,
За то, что Бог не спас.


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Re: Is "Islamophobic" a nonsensical term?

#64  Postby Imagination Theory » Nov 24, 2013 2:26 am

jez9999 wrote:
SkyMutt wrote:
jez9999 wrote:How is it a twist on the "no true Scotsman" fallacy? That fallacy is based on the speaker determining what defines a True Scotsman. Here, I'm taking what Muslims say makes one a Muslim and applying that to them.


So, tell me who it is that can speak authoritatively for all of Islam? While you're at it, please explain why Christians can ignore "Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law," yet still be Christian. Or are you now going to tell us that most people who call themselves Christian actually are pseudo-Christians?

Do the Christians think the Bible is the perfect word of god that may not be cherry-picked? No. That's the main difference.


Err, yes, most of them do. :scratch:
Я пью за разоренный дом,
За злую жизнь мою,
За одиночество вдвоем,
И за тебя я пью, -
За ложь меня предавших губ,
За мертвый холод глаз,
За то, что мир жесток и груб,
За то, что Бог не спас.


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Re: Is "Islamophobic" a nonsensical term?

#65  Postby james1v » Nov 24, 2013 2:47 am

SafeAsMilk wrote:
jez9999 wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:Essentially what you're saying is that unless a person follows a literal-as-bricks interpretation of their scriptures, they aren't a real follower. This, obviously, is bullshit.

I'm saying that that's what MUSLIMS say. If you can find examples of Muslims saying otherwise I'd be interested.

You should check out the Sufi's, for a start. As I mentioned, since there are different sects following from the same text, there is apparently room for interpretation in the texts.



What do the highest, occupyers of Islamic thinking, think of "the sufis". Those on high, supress, or recommend killing them.

Sufis, are a tiny minority within Islam. As insignificant as some liberal, couple of thousand, cultish christians today. As far as mainstream Islam is concerned, they are heritics. How many Sufi mosques exist in Iran, or Saudi? If there is any, what are the numbers of the congregations?
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Re: Is "Islamophobic" a nonsensical term?

#66  Postby NineBerry » Nov 24, 2013 8:23 am

jez9999 wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:Essentially what you're saying is that unless a person follows a literal-as-bricks interpretation of their scriptures, they aren't a real follower. This, obviously, is bullshit.

I'm saying that that's what MUSLIMS say. If you can find examples of Muslims saying otherwise I'd be interested.


The quran itself says that it has ambiguous parts that can be interpreted in different ways and that "evil people" will interpret it wrongly.


It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.

Quran 3,7

Note the last part. It says that true believers will say they believe all of the quran because it is from God although only God knows the true interpretation.
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Re: Is "Islamophobic" a nonsensical term?

#67  Postby Scot Dutchy » Nov 24, 2013 8:27 am

The opt-out clause of all opt-out clauses.
Myths in islam Women and islam Musilm opinion polls


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Re: Is "Islamophobic" a nonsensical term?

#68  Postby jez9999 » Nov 24, 2013 11:53 am

NineBerry wrote:Note the last part. It says that true believers will say they believe all of the quran because it is from God although only God knows the true interpretation.

"I believe it no matter what it says!"

Yup, sounds like blind faith to me. :-)
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Re: Is "Islamophobic" a nonsensical term?

#69  Postby HomerJay » Nov 24, 2013 9:15 pm

Imagination Theory wrote:people afraid of Islam because they are brown, foreign and don't believe in Jesus.

Wut?!?

Being brown makes you afraid of islam?

Islam it is:

a) a country
b) a people
c) a religion
d) an ideology
e) all of the above

:scratch:
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Re: Is "Islamophobic" a nonsensical term?

#70  Postby HomerJay » Nov 24, 2013 9:19 pm

SkyMutt wrote:
HomerJay wrote:
SkyMutt wrote: It is my opinion that "Islamophobia" is a lame buzz-word, but that does not mean that there is no such thing. It is its overuse by Islamist zealots which has rendered it nearly meaningless, not anything inherent to the term.

Bullshit.

You don't even know what it means.


Devastating analysis there, HomerJay. So enlightening, and brilliantly expressed. Your willingness to accuse "one million muslims" in England of calling for the death of Salman Rushdie shows remarkable discernment and insight. Image

Where have you said what you mean by islamophobia?

There's nothing to analyse til you do that.
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Re: Is "Islamophobic" a nonsensical term?

#71  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Nov 24, 2013 9:21 pm

HomerJay wrote:
SkyMutt wrote:
HomerJay wrote:
SkyMutt wrote: It is my opinion that "Islamophobia" is a lame buzz-word, but that does not mean that there is no such thing. It is its overuse by Islamist zealots which has rendered it nearly meaningless, not anything inherent to the term.

Bullshit.

You don't even know what it means.


Devastating analysis there, HomerJay. So enlightening, and brilliantly expressed. Your willingness to accuse "one million muslims" in England of calling for the death of Salman Rushdie shows remarkable discernment and insight. Image

Where have you said what you mean by islamophobia?

There's nothing to analyse til you do that.

Nor can you claim to know that he doesn't know what it means until he has done so.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Is "Islamophobic" a nonsensical term?

#72  Postby HomerJay » Nov 24, 2013 9:22 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
HomerJay wrote:
SkyMutt wrote:
HomerJay wrote:
Bullshit.

You don't even know what it means.


Devastating analysis there, HomerJay. So enlightening, and brilliantly expressed. Your willingness to accuse "one million muslims" in England of calling for the death of Salman Rushdie shows remarkable discernment and insight. Image

Where have you said what you mean by islamophobia?

There's nothing to analyse til you do that.

Nor can you claim to know that he doesn't know what it means until he has done so.

Unless his contradictory statements about it demonstrate he cannot know what it means.
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Re: Is "Islamophobic" a nonsensical term?

#73  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Nov 24, 2013 9:27 pm

HomerJay wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
HomerJay wrote:
SkyMutt wrote:

Devastating analysis there, HomerJay. So enlightening, and brilliantly expressed. Your willingness to accuse "one million muslims" in England of calling for the death of Salman Rushdie shows remarkable discernment and insight. Image

Where have you said what you mean by islamophobia?

There's nothing to analyse til you do that.

Nor can you claim to know that he doesn't know what it means until he has done so.

Unless his contradictory statements about it demonstrate he cannot know what it means.

It's not so much a matter of contradictory statements as incorrect grammar.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Is "Islamophobic" a nonsensical term?

#74  Postby SkyMutt » Nov 24, 2013 10:17 pm

HomerJay wrote:
SkyMutt wrote:
HomerJay wrote:
SkyMutt wrote: It is my opinion that "Islamophobia" is a lame buzz-word, but that does not mean that there is no such thing. It is its overuse by Islamist zealots which has rendered it nearly meaningless, not anything inherent to the term.

Bullshit.

You don't even know what it means.


Devastating analysis there, HomerJay. So enlightening, and brilliantly expressed. Your willingness to accuse "one million muslims" in England of calling for the death of Salman Rushdie shows remarkable discernment and insight. Image

Where have you said what you mean by islamophobia?

There's nothing to analyse til you do that.


So, you were the one putting out bullshit when you accused me of not knowing what the term means.

As I understand the term, it is not a description of a clinical phobia. Rather it's a loose colloquial descriptive term for strong or irrational fear or strong dislike of Islam and/or Muslims. That was my point in my first post in this thread. When jez9999 wrote in his OP that "in order to have a phobia of something, you must have an irrational fear of it," he was incorrect, in that Islamophobia is not a clinical diagnosis, but a colloquial term (as "phobia" is defined in the Oxford English Dictionary and Merriam-Webster). Given that, it need not be an irrational fear, but can be (and as I understand it, is) a wider term, encompassing strong dislike of Islam and/or Muslims, or rational (but again strong) fear of the effects of Islam on one's society.

Nothing written in this thread, including your posts, has shown why that understanding is incorrect. For instance, I disagree with your contention that homophobia is a nonsense term; it describes a very real phenomenon. Perhaps you live in some enlightened community in which nobody ever expresses over the top prejudice against Muslims, in which nobody ever discriminates against homosexuals merely because of their sexuality. I do not. I see both of those in the people around me, and I consider the terms applicable. Just because certain groups have thrown the term "Islamophobia" at anything remotely resembling it, does not mean that the phenomenon it describes does not exist. The same holds true for "homophobia."

I'm still wondering what is the basis for your accusation that "one million muslims" in England called for the death of Salman Rushdie.
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Re: Is "Islamophobic" a nonsensical term?

#75  Postby SkyMutt » Nov 24, 2013 10:18 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:It's not so much a matter of contradictory statements as incorrect grammar.


Please show me where you would correct the grammar that I used.
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Re: Is "Islamophobic" a nonsensical term?

#76  Postby theropod » Nov 24, 2013 10:19 pm

Sleeping in the hen house doesn't make you a chicken.
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Re: Is "Islamophobic" a nonsensical term?

#77  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Nov 24, 2013 10:22 pm

SkyMutt wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:It's not so much a matter of contradictory statements as incorrect grammar.


Please show me where you would correct the grammar that I used.

I could be wrong but I thought you meant to say:
SkyMutt wrote: It is my opinion that "Islamophobia" is used as a lame buzz-word, but that does not mean that there is no such thing. It is its overuse by Islamist zealots which has rendered it nearly meaningless, not anything inherent to the term.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Is "Islamophobic" a nonsensical term?

#78  Postby SkyMutt » Nov 24, 2013 10:34 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
SkyMutt wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:It's not so much a matter of contradictory statements as incorrect grammar.


Please show me where you would correct the grammar that I used.

I could be wrong but I thought you meant to say:
SkyMutt wrote: It is my opinion that "Islamophobia" is used as a lame buzz-word, but that does not mean that there is no such thing. It is its overuse by Islamist zealots which has rendered it nearly meaningless, not anything inherent to the term.


Ah. I think that would be a question of diction rather than grammar. :grin:

Perhaps your revision is better, but I really do think that the word has been rendered lame by its overuse.
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Re: Is "Islamophobic" a nonsensical term?

#79  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Nov 24, 2013 10:40 pm

SkyMutt wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
SkyMutt wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:It's not so much a matter of contradictory statements as incorrect grammar.


Please show me where you would correct the grammar that I used.

I could be wrong but I thought you meant to say:
SkyMutt wrote: It is my opinion that "Islamophobia" is used as a lame buzz-word, but that does not mean that there is no such thing. It is its overuse by Islamist zealots which has rendered it nearly meaningless, not anything inherent to the term.


Ah. I think that would be a question of diction rather than grammar. :grin:

English isn't my native language, so I tend to use grammar in place of diction or other linguistic terms. :oops:

SkyMutt wrote:Perhaps your revision is better, but I really do think that the word has been rendered lame by its overuse.

Meh, it still has it's use because there are actual Islamophobes as there are homophobes.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Is "Islamophobic" a nonsensical term?

#80  Postby tuco » Nov 24, 2013 10:46 pm

Islamophobic is about as "nonsensical" as homophobic.

edit: you stole my line Thomas. Pirate ..
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