Red Sea Crossing?

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Red Sea Crossing?

#1  Postby GodlessAmputee » Feb 28, 2010 6:27 pm

We recieved some literature from a seventh-day adventist who will be presenting a multi-media presentation on archeology that support the veracity of the bible. I am going to try to go to the presentation tonight, but there is no information on this guy or the one claim previewed in the mailer. The guy is Dan Bentzinger, the claim is that Israeli Archeologists have new verification of the location of the Red Sea crossing.

I could not really find anything online, even at the bible archeology sites, although that was amusing for other reasons: (can't get the youtube to embed)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGLPADW_ ... r_embedded

Does anyone know what this guy is referring to concerning the Red Sea Crossing? I would like to be somewhat prepared before I go.
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Re: Red Sea Crossing?

#2  Postby Crocodile Gandhi » Feb 28, 2010 6:51 pm

I once read a very poor written and evidenced article about a chariot wheel being found at the bottom of the Red Sea. Unfortunately for the writer of the article, further inspection revealed that it was more likely to be a coral formation. Though even if it was a chariot wheel it would have been proof of nothing except the existence of a chariot wheel.

He might also say something about the Reed sea as apposed to the Red Sea.

I think you should ask him why the Egyptians, who were meticulous record keepers, have zero records of this event having ever occured.
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Re: Red Sea Crossing?

#3  Postby Spearthrower » Feb 28, 2010 6:53 pm

GodlessAmputee wrote:We recieved some literature from a seventh-day adventist who will be presenting a multi-media presentation on archeology that support the veracity of the bible. I am going to try to go to the presentation tonight, but there is no information on this guy or the one claim previewed in the mailer. The guy is Dan Bentzinger, the claim is that Israeli Archeologists have new verification of the location of the Red Sea crossing.

I could not really find anything online, even at the bible archeology sites, although that was amusing for other reasons: (can't get the youtube to embed)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGLPADW_ ... r_embedded

Does anyone know what this guy is referring to concerning the Red Sea Crossing? I would like to be somewhat prepared before I go.


Is it anything to do with this site?

http://users.netconnect.com.au/~leedas/

This has a lot in common:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Wyatt
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Re: Red Sea Crossing?

#4  Postby GodlessAmputee » Feb 28, 2010 7:11 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
GodlessAmputee wrote:We recieved some literature from a seventh-day adventist who will be presenting a multi-media presentation on archeology that support the veracity of the bible. I am going to try to go to the presentation tonight, but there is no information on this guy or the one claim previewed in the mailer. The guy is Dan Bentzinger, the claim is that Israeli Archeologists have new verification of the location of the Red Sea crossing.

I could not really find anything online, even at the bible archeology sites, although that was amusing for other reasons: (can't get the youtube to embed)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGLPADW_ ... r_embedded

Does anyone know what this guy is referring to concerning the Red Sea Crossing? I would like to be somewhat prepared before I go.


Is it anything to do with this site?

http://users.netconnect.com.au/~leedas/

This has a lot in common:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Wyatt


I suspect this is what the guy will trump up. But the flyer indicated "new evidence" from Archeologists (I mis-quoted above, there was no reference to Israeli Archeologists. It was "Israel's Red Sea crossing"). I see that Wyatt has been dead for over 10 years and thoroughly debunked (thanks for the links). Dan Bentzinger I think is from a canned program created by the Washington Conference of Seventh Day Adventists because in researching this presentation I came across many similiarly titled talks (all had "discoveries" in the title) from similarly clad seventh day adventists.

So is there some new recent evidence for the Red Sea crossing we are unaware of? I will laugh if I see Ron Wyatt's mug on the screen. I have tried online looking for accredited sources form real archeologists, but have struck out so far. I may just try calling the local University.
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Re: Red Sea Crossing?

#5  Postby GodlessAmputee » Feb 28, 2010 8:07 pm

Well, after even more hunting all paths lead to Ron Wyatt and his submerged chariot wheels and bones. I will report back after the presentation tonight on what they are spewing to the devoted. I will try to get audio if I can. should be quite intersting. The title of tonights (one of 7) presentation is "Dead Men Do Tell Tales". Very insightful title don't you think? I will also be learning how "Hundreds of specific prophecies have already been fullfilled in every detail."

I have a prophecy: I am going to hear some of the most entertaining bullshit humankind has to offer.
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Re: Red Sea Crossing?

#6  Postby Spearthrower » Mar 01, 2010 3:42 am

GodlessAmputee wrote:
I have a prophecy: I am going to hear some of the most entertaining bullshit humankind has to offer.


And you'll be the only person laughing! :grin:
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Re: Red Sea Crossing?

#7  Postby GodlessAmputee » Mar 01, 2010 6:38 am

Spearthrower wrote:
GodlessAmputee wrote:
I have a prophecy: I am going to hear some of the most entertaining bullshit humankind has to offer.


And you'll be the only person laughing! :grin:


Regrettably, it was too pathetic for laughter. Here's what took place:


Presentation 1: Dead Men Do Tell Tales, by Dan Bentzinger: Amazing Discoveries tour.

I get to the hotel early just in case it becomes standing room only. I am greeted by people from the local Seventh Day Adventist Church and handed a page reiterating the information in the mailer. I also received an envelope with a pencil and a little card with a bar code for registration. There were two giant screens for the presentation. People were pretty quiet and detached as we waited for the program to start. Just before the program Bentzinger's wife sits at a keyboard and plays some gospel style music with a perma-grin only evangelists can manage (the kind that looks painful and forced).

Bentzinger begins with quite a bit of preamble about registering and emphasizing that they don't want our money. The DVD of the program is optional but requests a donation of $5 which I thought was reasonable. In his preamble he welcomes all comers including atheists. No recordings allowed.

One of the first images of the actual presentation is held onscreen for quite a while of a creepy hollow-eyed ancient bust. Bentzinger starts in by talking about how we have to believe in the factual truth of the Bible before we use it as a text. He states that the Bible will be the only text for the 7-night series. The two methods he attempts to use for showing the Bible's veracity are archaeology and prophecy.

He goes into prophesy for a bit first and states "If there is a prophecy that didn't happen then the Bible isn't true". I thought that was quite a good scientific way of looking at it (falsifiability). However, I suspect he never tried to find a failed prophecy or he hasn't tried very hard. He stated that he is in the God-knew-everything-that-was-going-to-happen-from-the-beginning camp. He quotes Isaiah, saying that god is never wrong about any of his plans and does just what he intends to do.

Next Bentzinger dives into Genesis citing examples of archeological sites that correspond with the Bible. The book has actual locations and characters in it. Hmm. What else would they write about? :ask:

He moves on to Exodus and goes into what he thinks is a super-important point that Mt. Sinai is not where we thought it was, which is evidence for the truth of the Red Sea crossing of Moses. The Sinai nonsense goes on for about 10 minutes before he gets rather excited about the underwater geography of the Red Sea. Somewhere in there he mentions the "great work" of the Discovery Institute (located here in Seattle) in the last 10-15 years. :naughty:

Then we finally get to the good stuff. He shows a picture of a guy in a boat, says its Lennart Moller, and goes on to describe how he went with lots of high tech equipment and implies he discovered the chariot wheels at the bottom of the Red Sea. Here's a link to a debunking of Moller: http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.c ... cy-dr.html

Mostly Bentzinger refered to "They". "They" found this, and "They" discovered that. It was quite frustrating when he ended his talk encouraging us to "just look at the evidence"...

Finally he gets into some prophecies:

The destruction of Tyre from Ezekial, Town of Jesus from mathew 11:24,25, Corinth and Romans 16:23 :doh:

Then we have the Dead Sea Scrolls showing the "innerrancy of the Bible through the generations" . He actually quotes a Harvard prof. saying there are no major inconsistencies. I noted that the Harvard guy did not say "perfect" or "innerrant".

Bentzinger finishes weakly talking about how people will try to talk you out of believing in the Bible, especially University professors. Watch out, be careful where you send your kids to school because the teachers will try to de-convert you! He even suggested he had been subjected to this treatment. He then went on to give an example of an atheist turning religious (Lew Wallace--author of "Ben-Hur"). Now that's convincing, isn't it?

He continued to drag it out, encouraging people (despite all the nay-sayers) to give the Bible a fair shot. He repeated over and over about having an open mind and looking at the evidence as if he were talking to a room of non-believers. I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't put some doubt into a few people. I mean why else would he be so worried about it? Just give it a chance he said.

He thought a funny conclusion was to talk about how we don't trust anyone anymore. He made a list: bankers, politicians, each other (did you lock your car? hahahaha). Suspiciously absent from his list was science.

Then it was good night, we will see you tomorrow when we get into some serious prophecies. No question time, everyone just filed out receiving an 8.5 by 11 sheet summarizing the topics covered. No references whatsoever. Not even the mention of Moller as in the presentation.

I decided to play nice and just left with the rest. I look forward to the next presentation where he will show how the Bible predicts which country will be the next superpower. I think I will try to go early and ask for some references so I can "examine the evidence" as he pleaded with us to do...
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Re: Red Sea Crossing?

#8  Postby virphen » Mar 01, 2010 6:41 am

It would be quite something to have found a trace of the Exodus at the bottom of the Red Sea, especially given they have completely failed to find archaelogical evidence on land to support it.
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Re: Red Sea Crossing?

#9  Postby GodlessAmputee » Mar 02, 2010 6:08 am

Well, I couldn't resist another night of prophecy propaganda. Tonight's topic was basically just one prophecy: Daniel's vision and interpretation of Nebuchadnezzar's dream, with the statue etc. We went through the various kingdoms said to be represented by the parts of the statue, culminating with the failures of Europe to unite under one flag via various conquerors and the interbreeding of the European royalty. Much more preachy at the end.

"What does it mean to us?", "We are living in the time of the toes of the statue", "Jesus is coming soon", "The next event is THE END!" Benztinger actually asked us to raise our hands if we wanted to be a part of the "FINAL KINGDOM". I was in the front row, so I didn't know if I was alone in non-raising. This part was accompanied by "scarey" images of the end times in cartoon form. There was some more audience soliciting and preaching before we wrapped up.

Afterward, I talked to a believer who was showing Bentzinger something. I asked what it was and he showed me a printout of the same old satelite photo from a zillion websites showing the route of Moses' flight from Egypt. At least this guy had a starting point for a source: http://www.detailshere.com/exoduspath.htm

We talked about Ron Wyatt for a bit, with me sharing my concerns about his past and his critics. I was polite, and he seemed nice enough. I wanted the conversation to continue. I asked questions about his sources and he gave me a few. In talking about Moller (he claimed it was spelled Mueller, but that name doesn't come up with anything) I suggested that all his evidence was just Ron Wyatt's pics. He told me about Moller's video which I could find on the Discovery Channel website (couldn't find anything, unless he meant the Amazing Mysteries series). I will ask tomorrow.

I left him by putting a bug in his ear about the credentials of our speaker, of whom we have yet to hear anything about his training or history. I still haven't confronted the speaker himself. Maybe tomorrow.

One last thing: I am confused as to what constitutes a prophesy. :ask: (The Skeptic's Annotated Bible includes proclamations and promises by God.) The Seventh-Day Adventists seem to focus mostly on Daniel and Revelation. I suppose everyone has different critera. How does one determine if "all " of the prophesies have been fulfilled as claimed if there are differing ideas of what falls into the category? ;)
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Re: Red Sea Crossing?

#10  Postby pelfdaddy » Mar 02, 2010 6:13 am

And The Three Musketeers by Alexandre Dumas is evidently a true story, since there really was a Louis XIV, a Cardinal Richlieu, and a city of La Rochelle...
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Re: Red Sea Crossing?

#11  Postby tnjrp » Mar 02, 2010 6:46 am

And D'Artagnan as well, of course. Quite the hero of the nation too, I understand.

Anyway. Too bad there wasn't more to chew on in the presentations, eh? GodlessAmputee seems to have suffered in vain...
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Re: Red Sea Crossing?

#12  Postby gladeross » Apr 08, 2012 6:13 pm

I live in Shelton, WA, and (like you) received the "Incredible Prophecies" slick. Like you, I was thinking of going for the recreation of it, and went online to do some advance research. I appreciate your information. Given what you've revealed, I may save my time, and not go. If there was an opportunity for audience input, it would be worth the time to stand and insert some rationality, but absent that, I think not.

What rationality would I insert?

I believe I'd resist directly attacking the so-called "evidence," and instead bring up a few more general, larger and more overriding concerns.

First, I would ask why it is that folks who so celebrate faith (claiming it's one of the highest virtues, an act and mode God himself values and rewards) are striving so mightily to find evidence? If faith is so damn good, in other words, why do its practitioners so yearn to end it via an embrace of evidence?

It's easy to realize, after all, that if true and convincing evidence were indeed found, the role of faith would instantly end. That great and wonderful thing, in other words, would at once be kaput! For consistency (not that any theistic believer was ever a fan of consistency), the theist must grant either that his evidence is much weaker than he claims, or that faith no longer has a role. Consistency demands one or the other.

Third, I've always thought it fascinating how you can judge the weakness of a proposition by how pitiful are the evidences folks array in its support. This follows because proponents for a position will naturally trot out the evidences they see as strongest. When you look at such "best" evidences and find they are pitiful, it speaks volumes about the proposition in general. To state it another way, it's obvious just how desperate proponents are -- for any real and legitimate evidence -- when they resort to supposed elements that are so flawed, corrupt and fraudulent as involved in cases like this. Truly bad evidence, in other words (when offered by proponents who apparently possess nothing better), in itself becomes evidence against the proposition it's employed to advance.

Perhaps that's what I'd most like to tell the audience. The piteousness of what you're grasping at here is perhaps the best evidence, of all, manifesting just how corrupt and baseless are your mystical and irrational conclusions.
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Re: Red Sea Crossing?

#13  Postby john carboni » Oct 26, 2012 8:05 pm

egyptians-yes they were meticulous and proud-full of pride and boastful about their accomplishments and conquests-but not of their humiliating defeats-especially against their own gods-who were not there to help them because they were shown not to exist-remember his hard heart-this defeat he definitely would not brag about.
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Re: Red Sea Crossing?

#14  Postby Onyx8 » Oct 26, 2012 11:16 pm

Someone might have noticed the 1-2 million people who left town that day though.
The problem with fantasies is you can't really insist that everyone else believes in yours, the other problem with fantasies is that most believers of fantasies eventually get around to doing exactly that.
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