SPLIT: 'Atheism is a positive claim'

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Re: SPLIT: 'Atheism is a positive claim'

#701  Postby Alan B » Feb 03, 2016 4:36 pm

BWE wrote:The fundamentalist wing of science involves strict belief that no knowledge is valid if it doesn't have controlled experimental evidence supporting the hypotheses which support that knowledge.

The absence of knowledge does not imply the presence of belief. But the presence of 'belief' does imply a lack of knowledge.

Therefore, 'lack of knowledge' cannot be synonymous with religion.
I have NO BELIEF in the existence of a God or gods. I do not have to offer evidence nor do I have to determine absence of evidence because I do not ASSERT that a God does or does not or gods do or do not exist.
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Re: SPLIT: 'Atheism is a positive claim'

#702  Postby Alan B » Feb 03, 2016 4:49 pm

BWE wrote:The holy manuscripts are released bit by bit under the benevolent authority of peer reviewed publications. And of course, both churches have a strict code of never naming themselves.


I see. So when some theist produces a 'Holy Thesis', all the other theists - Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus et al - have a meeting and peer-review the 'Holy Manuscript'.

Bollocks!
I have NO BELIEF in the existence of a God or gods. I do not have to offer evidence nor do I have to determine absence of evidence because I do not ASSERT that a God does or does not or gods do or do not exist.
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Re: SPLIT: 'Atheism is a positive claim'

#703  Postby Sendraks » Feb 03, 2016 4:52 pm

Alan B wrote:
BWE wrote:The fundamentalist wing of science involves strict belief that no knowledge is valid if it doesn't have controlled experimental evidence supporting the hypotheses which support that knowledge.

The absence of knowledge does not imply the presence of belief. But the presence of 'belief' does imply a lack of knowledge.

Therefore, 'lack of knowledge' cannot be synonymous with religion.


Also, being clear that you do not have an answer is a form of knowledge. Science is generally pretty open on where the gaps in our knowledge are. After all, if it were not open about this, it would stymie scientific research which is largely the process of finding out answers to things we don't know.

As opposed to the process adopted by religion, which is to insert "goddidit" into anything we don't presently understand.
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Re: SPLIT: 'Atheism is a positive claim'

#704  Postby Cito di Pense » Feb 03, 2016 4:57 pm

BWE wrote:It is simply my own understanding of the religions.


That's not an understanding, BWE. It's your prejudice. You're implying it's a problem for you if assertions totally lacking in supporting evidence are not regarded as 'valid', and has nothing to do with the practice of science. Re-defining supporting evidence so that it supports faith claims is an old trick used by those promoting faith instead of evidence.
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Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: SPLIT: 'Atheism is a positive claim'

#705  Postby BWE » Feb 03, 2016 5:03 pm

I am not implying that in any possible universe. I'm not even sure what you wrote even makes sense, but if it does, it isn't an issue for me in any way or form. It's simply unrelated.
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Re: SPLIT: 'Atheism is a positive claim'

#706  Postby BWE » Feb 03, 2016 5:05 pm

Alan B wrote:
BWE wrote:The fundamentalist wing of science involves strict belief that no knowledge is valid if it doesn't have controlled experimental evidence supporting the hypotheses which support that knowledge.

The absence of knowledge does not imply the presence of belief. But the presence of 'belief' does imply a lack of knowledge.

Therefore, 'lack of knowledge' cannot be synonymous with religion.

I agree completely. It's all about belief.
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Re: SPLIT: 'Atheism is a positive claim'

#707  Postby BWE » Feb 03, 2016 5:07 pm

Sendraks wrote:
Alan B wrote:
BWE wrote:The fundamentalist wing of science involves strict belief that no knowledge is valid if it doesn't have controlled experimental evidence supporting the hypotheses which support that knowledge.

The absence of knowledge does not imply the presence of belief. But the presence of 'belief' does imply a lack of knowledge.

Therefore, 'lack of knowledge' cannot be synonymous with religion.


Also, being clear that you do not have an answer is a form of knowledge. Science is generally pretty open on where the gaps in our knowledge are. After all, if it were not open about this, it would stymie scientific research which is largely the process of finding out answers to things we don't know.

As opposed to the process adopted by religion, which is to insert "goddidit" into anything we don't presently understand.

Yes. Very good example.
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Re: SPLIT: 'Atheism is a positive claim'

#708  Postby Sendraks » Feb 03, 2016 5:14 pm

BWE wrote:
Yes. Very good example.


Of what?
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Re: SPLIT: 'Atheism is a positive claim'

#709  Postby BWE » Feb 03, 2016 5:18 pm

An application of a belief system superimposed on a methodology. Reification.
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Re: SPLIT: 'Atheism is a positive claim'

#710  Postby Sendraks » Feb 03, 2016 5:35 pm

BWE wrote:An application of a belief system superimposed on a methodology. Reification.


Well, I'd hesitate to say that religion was a "methodology" although I suppose you could say that in so far that their belief system has the "method" of shoehorning "god" into every conceivable gap it can find.
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Re: SPLIT: 'Atheism is a positive claim'

#711  Postby BWE » Feb 03, 2016 7:35 pm

Sendraks wrote:
BWE wrote:An application of a belief system superimposed on a methodology. Reification.


Well, I'd hesitate to say that religion was a "methodology" although I suppose you could say that in so far that their belief system has the "method" of shoehorning "god" into every conceivable gap it can find.

I like to think of it as 'methods of getting dad to give me a pony'. Shoehorning god is the belief part.
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Re: SPLIT: 'Atheism is a positive claim'

#712  Postby VazScep » Feb 03, 2016 8:55 pm

SkyMutt wrote:I think that Post-Atheism is a more pretentious religion than either science or atheism. :)
Anyone who is identified as post-it is more pretentious than it, because they're expected to know the it and furthermore, know how to go post it.

Post-it societies are more likely described as ignorant. If someone tells me that a piece of modernist music is just fucking discordant noise, I'm not going to congratulate them on their postmodern critique, but just reflect that modernist music consisted of some pretty stupid ideas which we've happily forgotten.
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Re: SPLIT: 'Atheism is a positive claim'

#713  Postby tolman » Feb 03, 2016 9:37 pm

BWE wrote:That is an excellent question. While I'm sure that various denominations consider different things important so there is probably no hard and fast rule that works 100%, I'd say that to be a fundamentalist atheist you have to really care about how it's defined.
It doesn't matter what your choice specifically is, just that you truly believe your definition is the appropriate and correct definition.

That seems a hopelessly not-thought-through definition, since if 'caring how atheism is defined' or 'having a definition one believes is the correct one' is a sufficient entry qualification not simply for atheism but for 'fundamentalist atheism', then all the theists who have definitions of atheism they believe are correct (and clearly there are such people) are 'fundamentalist atheists'.

I'd suggest a beginner's book on logic, but I'm not sure anyone's written one sufficiently beginnerish.
Last edited by tolman on Feb 03, 2016 10:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: SPLIT: 'Atheism is a positive claim'

#714  Postby BWE » Feb 03, 2016 9:55 pm

tolman wrote:
BWE wrote:That is an excellent question. While I'm sure that various denominations consider different things important so there is probably no hard and fast rule that works 100%, I'd say that to be a fundamentalist atheist you have to really care about how it's defined.

It doesn't matter what your choice specifically is, just that you truly believe your definition is the appropriate and correct definition.

That seems a hopelessly not-thought-through definition, since if 'caring how atheism is defined' or 'having a definition one believes is the correct one' is a sufficient entry qualification not simply for atheism but for 'fundamentalist atheism', then all the theists who have definitions of atheism they believe are correct (and clearly there are such people) are 'fundamentalist atheists'.

I'd suggest a beginner's book on logic, but I'm not sure anyone's written one sufficiently beginnerish.


I am shocked that you would think that I would just write an off the cuff answer to a question of such profound import.

Those who simply lack a belief don't have identity wrapped up in that. It doesn't matter how you define something which doesn't particularly matter. If you told me I wasn't a true atheist, xian or buddhist, that would be fine with me even though by some definition I might be any. If you told me that I was one or all of them that wouldn't much matter either since any of them could be defined such as to either include or exclude me from the categories. Since I have no religious connection to the terms, I have no particular skin in the game of how you want to define it. I am not a true scotsman either I suppose, even though I've been told I have one scottish ancestor.

Just sayin.
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Re: SPLIT: 'Atheism is a positive claim'

#715  Postby tolman » Feb 03, 2016 10:24 pm

BWE wrote:Those who simply lack a belief don't have identity wrapped up in that. It doesn't matter how you define something which doesn't particularly matter.

But you weren't talking about identity.
You were talking about opinions on the definition of a word.
Opinions which people can obviously have whether or not they feel the word applies to them.

Also, even limiting things just to atheists, your argument would still be that someone who strongly asserted that anyone lacking belief in theistic entities was an atheist would be a 'fundamentalist atheist' even though they would be supporting the most inclusive definition.

That would be equivalent to saying that if a person said they believed "All someone needs to do to be a Christian is to believe in at least a partially-divine Jesus Christ" would mean that person was a 'Fundamentalist Christian', which I'd hope even you could see was just bollocks.
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Re: SPLIT: 'Atheism is a positive claim'

#716  Postby BWE » Feb 03, 2016 10:27 pm

I most certainly was talking about identity. What else defines a religion?
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Re: SPLIT: 'Atheism is a positive claim'

#717  Postby Cito di Pense » Feb 03, 2016 10:39 pm

BWE wrote:I most certainly was talking about identity. What else defines a religion?


You'd be going great guns if you could show that religion (however you designate) excludes other aspects of identity. That sort of puts a damper on identity in the first place, which ought by rights to be one thing.

It's a different matter to say "I identify as X but also as Y". It's a 'manner of speaking' but you couldn't really figure out what it denotes.

BWE wrote:
I am shocked that you would think that I would just write an off the cuff answer to a question of such profound import.


I think I'll keep my own counsel as to what is profound and what isn't. And what is, y'know, pretentious claptrap. You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but facts are nowhere in your grasp today, are they?
Last edited by Cito di Pense on Feb 03, 2016 10:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: SPLIT: 'Atheism is a positive claim'

#718  Postby BWE » Feb 03, 2016 10:42 pm

has anyone ever told you that you sometimes make no sense?>
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Re: SPLIT: 'Atheism is a positive claim'

#719  Postby Fallible » Feb 03, 2016 10:55 pm

Another question might be is here the kindergarten for babies ?
She battled through in every kind of tribulation,
She revelled in adventure and imagination.
She never listened to no hater, liar,
Breaking boundaries and chasing fire.
Oh, my my! Oh my, she flies!
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Re: SPLIT: 'Atheism is a positive claim'

#720  Postby surreptitious57 » Feb 03, 2016 11:06 pm

BWE wrote:
has anyone ever told you that you sometimes make no sense

The mighty Cito can indeed be very inscrutable to us mortals
A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE : IT DOES NOT WORK UNLESS IT IS OPEN
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