laklak wrote:Let them die off in the next pandemic, the world will be a much better place without them.

If only measles had such a high mortality rate.

ontodva wrote:What can I say to someone who believes that vaccines spread disease and a widespread conspiracy within the medical and other establishments are concealing the truth - that vaccines are very harmful?

I would like to suggest that such a conspiracy would be impossible to maintain because multiple defections of those with knowledge of the truth would expose the conspiracy and the real situation. The defectors would have impeccable qualifications and career histories, their exposures would tally, and they would be extremely hard to deny.

Except the world endured decades of being mislead about the danger to health of dietary sugar and the relative safety of dietary fat. When the truth - and how can we now be sure it is the truth - emerged the story was of a conspiracy of researchers at the top of their professions who prevented rising researchers from publishing the truth, who systematically denied the worth of existing evidence, and who intimidated researchers with chilling effect tactics and mislead the field of dietary science, and the whole world, from the 1970s to the 2010s, with the enthusiastic support of the food industry.

In the light of this how can I convince anyone that a conspiracy around the safety and efficacy of vaccines is unlikely to be true in the first place and unable to be maintained for so long?

That is, convince without resort to a catalogue of facts but just by simple reason. If I need to give multiple facts and fit them into a narrative to produce an explanatory history of the controversy I have already lost the argument because all these 'facts' and 'events' would need justification, the justifications would entail more 'facts', and so on.

I think the first step on tackling a vaccine denialist, is to be honest, in order to make them aware, you "are" aware of the concerns. Because they will be less likely to listen to you, if they think you are "only" aware of the pro-vaccine argument.

As with any medical treatment, there is a potential for vaccines to cause serious complications, such as severe allergic reactions, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_hesitancy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_h ... mon_themes

And also, be honest, that in rare cases, a vaccination may even cause a person that would have otherwise been healthy, to become ill, whilst a person that would have otherwise become ill, due to the disease, becomes immune.

but unlike most other medical interventions, vaccines are given to healthy people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_h ... mon_themes

Now just before one might begin to think you are arguing in favour of vaccine denial, you remind them that healthy people falling ill due to adverse reactions is extremely rare, and more people are saved by vaccines, than are negatively effected.

While serious complications from vaccinations are possible, they are extremely rare and much less common than similar risks from the diseases they prevent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_h ... mon_themes

You can also attempt a little gentle ridicule, by enlightening them to one of the concerns against vaccinations, and tell them the story of Thiomersal, and how anti-vaxers think a vaccine containing 0.01% thiomersal might kill them.

Thiomersal (spelled "thimerosal" in the US) is an antifungal preservative used in small amounts in some multi-dose vaccines https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_h ... mon_themes

Then allert them to the fact that there is as much Thiomersal in a can of Tuna

A vaccine containing 0.01% thiomersal has 25 micrograms of mercury per 0.5 mL dose, roughly the same amount of elemental mercury found in a three-ounce can of tuna. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_h ... mon_themes

You could also point to the fact that average life expectancy has increased during the age of vaccination.

Now another ingredient which causes concern is Aluminium, however there are greater amounts of Aluminium in breast-milk, than in vaccines

Infants are exposed to greater quantities of aluminum in daily life in breastmilk and infant formula than in vaccines https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_h ... mon_themes

You can also highlight to them what happened in Pakistan and Afghanistan in 2015, when they got it in their head that the Polio vaccination was a Western plot to make Muslim men infertile. They suffered a Polio endemic

This is part of the reason Pakistan and Afghanistan are the only countries where polio still remained endemic as of 2015. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_h ... mon_themes

But the only way to really counter them, is to get them in debate, and just make sure and counter them in every argument.
But also "try" if possible to make sure you are also being honest about concerns, and if you find any valid information that supports their argument, reveal it, and also "try" if possible, to make sure you are also teaching them things they currently did not know. You don't want them teaching you things you did not know, otherwise, you might end up losing the debate, even though the argument you were debating for, was the correct one.

theropod wrote:I grew up under the real and present threat of polio. A grade school classmate of mine contracted polio and was left with useless legs. Polio is a horror and the vaccine eradicated it. Smallpox is a horror and the vaccine eradicated it. Vaccines work. Don’t waste a single breath arguing with nutbuckets that “know” otherwise.

RS

Polio is now making a comeback. I wonder why.

by 2006 South Africa had joined the vast majority of countries declared polio-free. But in 2017, WHO quietly withdrew South Africa’s certification – putting us among seven African countries not certified polio-free.