Tell me a simple effective argument against vaccine denial

about vaccine harm concealment conspiracy

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Tell me a simple effective argument against vaccine denial

#1  Postby ontodva » Jul 03, 2019 10:21 am

What can I say to someone who believes that vaccines spread disease and a widespread conspiracy within the medical and other establishments are concealing the truth - that vaccines are very harmful?

I would like to suggest that such a conspiracy would be impossible to maintain because multiple defections of those with knowledge of the truth would expose the conspiracy and the real situation. The defectors would have impeccable qualifications and career histories, their exposures would tally, and they would be extremely hard to deny.

Except the world endured decades of being mislead about the danger to health of dietary sugar and the relative safety of dietary fat. When the truth - and how can we now be sure it is the truth - emerged the story was of a conspiracy of researchers at the top of their professions who prevented rising researchers from publishing the truth, who systematically denied the worth of existing evidence, and who intimidated researchers with chilling effect tactics and mislead the field of dietary science, and the whole world, from the 1970s to the 2010s, with the enthusiastic support of the food industry.

In the light of this how can I convince anyone that a conspiracy around the safety and efficacy of vaccines is unlikely to be true in the first place and unable to be maintained for so long?

That is, convince without resort to a catalogue of facts but just by simple reason. If I need to give multiple facts and fit them into a narrative to produce an explanatory history of the controversy I have already lost the argument because all these 'facts' and 'events' would need justification, the justifications would entail more 'facts', and so on.
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Re: Tell me a simple effective argument against vaccine denial

#2  Postby Fenrir » Jul 03, 2019 12:57 pm

There is no genuine argument or rational discussion to be had.

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Re: Tell me a simple effective argument against vaccine denial

#3  Postby Keep It Real » Jul 03, 2019 1:11 pm

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Re: Tell me a simple effective argument against vaccine denial

#4  Postby scott1328 » Jul 03, 2019 1:34 pm

ontodva wrote:
That is, convince without resort to a catalogue of facts but just by simple reason. If I need to give multiple facts and fit them into a narrative to produce an explanatory history of the controversy I have already lost the argument because all these 'facts' and 'events' would need justification, the justifications would entail more 'facts', and so on.

Reason without facts, is merely masturbation.
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Re: Tell me a simple effective argument against vaccine denial

#5  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 03, 2019 1:54 pm

ontodva wrote:What can I say to someone who believes that vaccines spread disease and a widespread conspiracy within the medical and other establishments are concealing the truth - that vaccines are very harmful?


That mostly depends on whether you want to remain friends with them after you say your piece or not.


ontodva wrote:I would like to suggest that such a conspiracy would be impossible to maintain because multiple defections of those with knowledge of the truth would expose the conspiracy and the real situation. The defectors would have impeccable qualifications and career histories, their exposures would tally, and they would be extremely hard to deny.

Except the world endured decades of being mislead about the danger to health of dietary sugar and the relative safety of dietary fat. When the truth - and how can we now be sure it is the truth - emerged the story was of a conspiracy of researchers at the top of their professions who prevented rising researchers from publishing the truth, who systematically denied the worth of existing evidence, and who intimidated researchers with chilling effect tactics and mislead the field of dietary science, and the whole world, from the 1970s to the 2010s, with the enthusiastic support of the food industry.

In the light of this how can I convince anyone that a conspiracy around the safety and efficacy of vaccines is unlikely to be true in the first place and unable to be maintained for so long?

That is, convince without resort to a catalogue of facts but just by simple reason. If I need to give multiple facts and fit them into a narrative to produce an explanatory history of the controversy I have already lost the argument because all these 'facts' and 'events' would need justification, the justifications would entail more 'facts', and so on.



It's unlikely to get through, but you can use a homily.

The question is in story format and goes something like:

If you woke up feeling really sick, went to the doctor, and the doctor told you after conducting tests that you have a serious disease which could kill you in short order that can only be cured by taking this medicine. Would you take the medicine? Perhaps the medicine has bad side effects, or perhaps the medicine is expensive. You might want to get a 2nd opinion - that seems a reasonable thing to do, after all, some people - even doctors - make mistakes. So you go to a 2nd, totally unrelated doctor, who also tests you, and uses a few further checks, and then concurs with the first doctor that you need to take the medicine or else you might die. Well, 2 people could be wrong. So you go to a 3rd who does yet more tests, concurs with the other doctors. You do this a further 96 times until you now have 99 professionally trained and licensed doctors who have used every imaginable available test and who have all independently agreed on the diagnosis that you have a potentially mortal disease which can only be cured by taking the medicine.

By this point, it's no longer reasonable or rational to dispute these trained doctors' professional opinion: it is denial. Any sensible person would take the medicine if they wished to live.

But what would you then say to a person who not only ignores those 99 doctors professional medical opinion, but instead goes and does a Google search until they find a dodgy website that tells them they'll be fine and that the disease is all some shady conspiracy by Big Pharma to profit from their fear? Why does that one illegitimate opinion outweigh the consensus of 99 professionally trained doctors who have actually conducted laboratory tests and arrived independently on the same prognosis?

As a metaphor for vaccines, this doesn't quite work not because it's wrong, but because it's not just 99 doctors who are in consensus, but millions of doctors who have independently reviewed all the available evidence, who have seen thousands of tests conducted by researchers all over the world, and all of them agree that vaccines are safe and prevent seriously harmful debilitating diseases.

Still, you could argue it's ultimately your choice what action to take. In the same way, it would also be your choice to throw yourself in front of a bus, but don't expect reasonable, compassionate people to stand by and say nothing when you attempt to do so.
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Re: Tell me a simple effective argument against vaccine denial

#6  Postby Sendraks » Jul 03, 2019 2:49 pm

Anti-vaccination propaganda has been developed by the Russian and Chinese Governments as part of a plan to weaken western populations.

Throw that at your friend and then see which conspiracy sticks.
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Re: Tell me a simple effective argument against vaccine denial

#7  Postby laklak » Jul 03, 2019 3:42 pm

You can't convince them because they're fucking morons.
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Re: Tell me a simple effective argument against vaccine denial

#8  Postby theropod » Jul 03, 2019 3:47 pm

I grew up under the real and present threat of polio. A grade school classmate of mine contracted polio and was left with useless legs. Polio is a horror and the vaccine eradicated it. Smallpox is a horror and the vaccine eradicated it. Vaccines work. Don’t waste a single breath arguing with nutbuckets that “know” otherwise.

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Re: Tell me a simple effective argument against vaccine denial

#9  Postby tuco » Jul 03, 2019 4:33 pm

Is this something like .. Convince me the Earth is not flat without referring to the fact it's not? Look at ships and the horizon. There is no such argument for vaccination, obviously. However, this:

If I need to give multiple facts and fit them into a narrative to produce an explanatory history of the controversy I have already lost the argument because all these 'facts' and 'events' would need justification, the justifications would entail more 'facts', and so on.


is false.

Vaccination is mandatory where I live so it would be really simple for me to convince someone living here. Convince me seatbelts work by reason. Sure, it's mandatory. GG EZ
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Re: Tell me a simple effective argument against vaccine denial

#10  Postby Cito di Pense » Jul 03, 2019 4:50 pm

It's even worse than you thought.

But the internet has achieved something even more cynical. It has made belief irrelevant. As soap operas have been supplanted by reality television and now YouTube vlogging, the line between fantasy and reality has become somewhat passé. Conspiracy theorizing is no longer stigmatized; it’s just for fun.


https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/01/scie ... heory.html

Don't waste your time proposing effective rational arguments against vaccine denial (or, indeed, any of the dastardly threats to rationality that are the lifeblood of this place) until you know the denialist or conspiracist is sincere.

The quote above does not state that the line between fantasy and reality is constructed; only that it is somewhat passé.

In fact, even claims to be searching for effective arguments, if not actually insincere, are... irrelevant.
Last edited by Cito di Pense on Jul 03, 2019 5:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tell me a simple effective argument against vaccine denial

#11  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 03, 2019 4:57 pm

Post post-postmodernism
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Re: Tell me a simple effective argument against vaccine denial

#12  Postby Cito di Pense » Jul 03, 2019 5:14 pm

Spearthrower wrote:Post post-postmodernism


I don't mean that. I don't quite know why someone would claim to be interested in a simple effective argument. Against vaccine denial, of all things.

It's that old joke: Fast, cheap, good. You can have two out of three.

Oh, wait. That's not a joke.

With ontodva's initial post, I feel as if I'm suffering from déjà vu and amnesia at the same time. I may have forgotten this a few times, already.
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Re: Tell me a simple effective argument against vaccine denial

#13  Postby hackenslash » Jul 03, 2019 6:14 pm

That's what you said last time.
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Re: Tell me a simple effective argument against vaccine denial

#14  Postby Cito di Pense » Jul 03, 2019 6:29 pm

hackenslash wrote:That's what you said last time.


Don't believe his lies. He is the one. Kill him.

Remember Sammy Jankis.

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Re: Tell me a simple effective argument against vaccine denial

#15  Postby Hermit » Jul 04, 2019 12:08 am

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Another drive-by https://i.postimg.cc/025fHDPW/sigh.gif

I wonder whose sock it was this time.
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Re: Tell me a simple effective argument against vaccine denial

#16  Postby laklak » Jul 04, 2019 3:07 am

I caught a faint whiff of nerd thighs.
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Re: Tell me a simple effective argument against vaccine denial

#17  Postby ontodva » Jul 04, 2019 7:32 pm

What is Hermit implying?
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Re: Tell me a simple effective argument against vaccine denial

#18  Postby hackenslash » Jul 04, 2019 7:42 pm

That you're a sock-puppet of a previously banned member (and I mean that in all senses).

The simple fact is that there's no effective argument against somebody who denies reality. I, and others here, can bury you in reams of sources that not only acknowledge the risks inherent in vaccines, but also in the voluminous wealth of data that tell us that the minuscule risks are put massively in the shade by the benefits.

Me? I just tell them that, if they're happy to be responsible for the deaths of children, they could live with it if they weren't too stupid to save, and that they can fuck right off.

When I'm king of the world, advocating against vaccines will carry all the same penalties as murder, because that's what it is. Don't waste your time with them.

FYI, I don't ever advocate the death penalty, but Andrew Wakefield is somebody I'd be more than happy to carry out sentence on myself.
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Re: Tell me a simple effective argument against vaccine denial

#19  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 04, 2019 8:03 pm

ontodva wrote:What is Hermit implying?


Don't take it personally, it's something of a fetish here! :)
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Re: Tell me a simple effective argument against vaccine denial

#20  Postby laklak » Jul 05, 2019 3:36 am

They're fucking batshit whackjobs. They're like YECs, it's conspiracies all the way down. Biologists, lying about the germ theory of disease. Governments (pretty much all of them), lying about the efficacy of vaccines and covering up the fact that they're POISON. Historians, who lie about how bad previous epidemics were (look, measles is just a fever kids get, right?). Doctors, nurses, epidemiologists, pharmacists - all lying their asses off. It's like, the BIGGEST conspiracy in the whole world, even bigger than chem trails. All to sell more vaccines because THAT'S where the money is, boy, fucking MMR shots. Forget cancer drugs, biologicals, antibiotics, psychiatric meds, steroids, all that, the real dosh is in $5 a dose vaccines, and they don't care if they give YOUR precious little snotball autism just so they can drive a new BMW.

This is how these fucking idiots "think". Do you honestly think you can change their minds? And why would you want to? Let them die off in the next pandemic, the world will be a much better place without them.
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