The Story of Your Enslavement

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The Story of Your Enslavement

#1  Postby Zadocfish2 » Aug 30, 2017 9:36 pm

The video:



Anyone want to discuss this... I don't know what else to call it, propaganda?
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Re: The Story of Your Enslavement

#2  Postby Cito di Pense » Aug 31, 2017 1:26 am

I think you very well know the answer to your question about propaganda. Alternatively, I'm sure you must have some other hobbies besides asking abstract rhetorical questions about religious dogma at a rationalist website. In previous posts like this, a few responses have explained what is wrong with the garbage arguments used in religious apologetics. After watching about 30 seconds of the video and seeing that its length is nearly 15 minutes, I decided to spend that time responding to you instead of to the propaganda. I'd feel like a total sucker for watching it all the way through.

Why don't you say a few words specifically on how you feel about religious propaganda, especially any specific content, because fuck knows, there are more than enough conversations about this in the abstract. Otherwise, it might tend to look like you just want to post some religious apologetics without admitting that's what you're doing. Either you know how to deal with cartoons like the one you posted, and so it's irrelevant, or you don't know, and you're embarrassed to say which arguments you find yourself unable to counter, or you actually accept the arguments and want somebody else to contest them. You've done this a few times now, and it's getting a bit tedious.

Just enslave yourself with something else, like measure theory.
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Re: The Story of Your Enslavement

#3  Postby Zadocfish2 » Aug 31, 2017 2:12 am

... Funny, no matter what I post, you find a way to turn it into a religious thing. I post a piece of anarchist propaganda, and you start talking religious apologetics? I mean, I'm involved in one or two threads involving religious apologetics, but this very blatantly isn't one... Did you actually watch any of the video? It has 0 religious content. It's JUST about (overblown rhetoric regarding) the problems with governments.

You seem to have this weird idea that everything I do has to be tied in with religious apologetics. I... don't get it, honestly.
We've been over this a few times, but you just keep making bogus assumptions. Remember last time, when you thought I was supporting a creationist argument that I was arguing against, purely because I'm a Christian? Or maybe that was the time before last. Good times.

Either you know how to deal with cartoons like the one you posted, and so it's irrelevant, or you don't know, and you're embarrassed to say which arguments you find yourself unable to counter, or you actually accept the arguments and want somebody else to contest them. You've done this a few times now, and it's getting a bit tedious.


Cartoon...? I thought you said you got 30 seconds in. Or do you mean that this guy's basically a cartoon caricature? Actually, can you tell me, without watching the video, what you thought it was about? Because your earlier statement implies that this was a religious video (it's not), while this one simply implies that I have some kind of personal connection to it...

Also, there is a third option besides trying to preach or trying to gain ammunition: I like discussions about ideas, I enjoy reading different perspectives about ideas, and I'm trying to stimulate said discussion. Anarchism is an interesting topic, and I wanted to talk about it with smart people. That's where it starts and ends. It's an interesting subject about sociology, it has a tinge of conspiracy to it, so I made a thread in Debunking.

I mean, I have my own opinions about the video, but I wanted to hear other people's opinions. I watched a bit of the Measure theory... but, for some reason, stuff about music theory don't really grab me. It doesn't apply to any interests I have, so it just sounds dry to me. I'm okay with math when it's applied to stuff I like, like biology, sociology, and astronomy, but music... I know what I like when I hear it, and that's about as far as my interest goes. Sorry :(
Last edited by Zadocfish2 on Aug 31, 2017 2:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Story of Your Enslavement

#4  Postby Cito di Pense » Aug 31, 2017 2:16 am

Zadocfish2 wrote:... Funny, no matter what I post, you find a way to turn it into a religious thing. I post a piece of anarchist propaganda, and you start talking religious apologetics? I mean, I'm involved in one or two threads involving religious apologetics, but this very blatantly isn't one... Did you actually watch any of the video? It has 0 religious content. It's JUST about (overblown rhetoric regarding) the problems with governments.

You seem to have this weird idea that everything I do has to be tied in with religious apologetics. I... don't get it, honestly.
We've been over this a few times, but you just keep making bogus assumptions. Remember last time, when you thought I was supporting a creationist argument that I was arguing against, purely because I'm a Christian? Or maybe that was the time before last. Good times.

Either you know how to deal with cartoons like the one you posted, and so it's irrelevant, or you don't know, and you're embarrassed to say which arguments you find yourself unable to counter, or you actually accept the arguments and want somebody else to contest them. You've done this a few times now, and it's getting a bit tedious.


Cartoon...? I thought you said you got 30 seconds in. Or do you mean that this guy's basically a cartoon caricature? Actually, can you tell me, without watching the video, what you thought it was about? Because your earlier statement implies that this was a religious video (it's not), while this one simply implies that I have some kind of personal connection to it...

Also, there is a third option besides trying to preach or trying to gain ammunition: I like discussions about ideas, I enjoy reading different perspectives about ideas, and I'm trying to stimulate said discussion. Anarchism is an interesting topic, and I wanted to talk about it with smart people. That's where it starts and ends. It's an interesting subject about sociology, it has a tinge of conspiracy to it, so I made a thread in Debunking.

I mean, I have my own opinions about the video, but I wanted to hear other people's opinions. I'll watch the measure theory thing, though.


Sorry, Justin. The video begins with some junk about 'fear of death' and I just switched off. I don't know whether the video is religious propaganda or not.

What I don't care for is the practice of posting a link without first giving your own thoughts about it. You're asking people to invest 15 minutes of their time in something that you alone may find interesting, Without your input, no, I'm not going to watch it. Furthermore, if you already understand it as overblown rhetoric, why don't you expend some effort in finding something about anarchism that actually has some content?
Last edited by Cito di Pense on Aug 31, 2017 2:19 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Story of Your Enslavement

#5  Postby Zadocfish2 » Aug 31, 2017 2:18 am

Ah. Should I edit the OP, or just comment my thoughts?
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Re: The Story of Your Enslavement

#6  Postby Cito di Pense » Aug 31, 2017 2:21 am

Zadocfish2 wrote:Ah. Should I edit the OP, or just comment my thoughts?


What you should have done, Justin, is omit the video, which we both agree is junk, and just give your thoughts about anarchism or your thoughts about government 'enslavement', or something like that. But it's too late for that.
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Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: The Story of Your Enslavement

#7  Postby Zadocfish2 » Aug 31, 2017 2:25 am

Aw. But this guy is apparently pretty popular (664K subs), so I though a regular debunking would be a nice idea. I think it's an interesting talking point... Because it is kinda like a manifesto, more than anything. Do people not usually post videos of the bunk they're talking about on this site? I think I've seen a few threads like that, especially in the Creationism sub-forum.

Also, I think my thoughts on the topic would generate considerably less interest and discussion than a big-name, charismatic... internet lecturer? I don't know the word for it, "content creator" maybe. Anarchist, anyways.
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Re: The Story of Your Enslavement

#8  Postby Cito di Pense » Aug 31, 2017 2:43 am

Zadocfish2 wrote:Aw. But this guy is apparently pretty popular (664K subs), so I though a regular debunking would be a nice idea. I think it's an interesting talking point... Because it is kinda like a manifesto, more than anything. Do people not usually post videos of the bunk they're talking about on this site? I think I've seen a few threads like that, especially in the Creationism sub-forum.

Also, I think my thoughts on the topic would generate considerably less interest and discussion than a big-name, charismatic... internet lecturer? I don't know the word for it, "content creator" maybe. Anarchist, anyways.


Is that what you find significant about this video? That it has lots of 'subs'? Would 'debunking' it change the fact that the owner of that content may be making some kind of living from his youtube channel? Do you think posting a link to the video is doing anything but giving it wider exposure?

What do you think is specifically anarchist about the video's theme or content? The video is obviously using 'enslavement' in a figurative sense. So what's the upshot? "Free your mind from the shackles imposed by society"? Nope, never seen that one before.

Again, I'm sorry for assuming the video was religious propaganda of a 'traditional' type, but it looks to me very much like religious propaganda of a 'non-traditional' type. YMMV. Taken a bit further, you can see the parallels between what that guy is doing, and what more traditional televangelists do, by saying things he knows a certain sort of person likes to hear.
Last edited by Cito di Pense on Aug 31, 2017 2:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Story of Your Enslavement

#9  Postby Zadocfish2 » Aug 31, 2017 2:56 am

Well, as for exposure... see all the other videos in the "debunking" section. Discussing ideas is an inherently worthwhile thing to do, I think.

So I take it you've watched the video? I say he's specifically an anarchist because he's, well, advocating the position that government is an encroachment on freedom. Not just our government here, but ALL governments and all businesses. The only alternative to living within those structure is a system with no formal government, which is... laughable, at best. Maybe he's a Libertarian? But I don't think even Libertarians have so much bile for basic human establishment as this guy seems to. My problem is that he talks a lot about the flaws of society, but doesn't really seem to get how or why society works, and doesn't propose any solutions for the problems he lists other than "fight the system." Again, that's a hallmark of the anarchist movement.

He is like a televangelist, I think. It's that thing where a person who wants to get popular makes "you, the viewer" the victim of whatever group he's opposing. Also, the idea of a system allowing for government criticism and job selection and independent businesses being called "slavery" kind of flies in the face of the ACTUAL slavery that happens around the world today. Seems disrespectful, at best, manipulative AND disrespectful at worst.
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Re: The Story of Your Enslavement

#10  Postby Cito di Pense » Aug 31, 2017 2:59 am

Zadocfish2 wrote:I say he's specifically an anarchist because he's, well, advocating the position that government is an encroachment on freedom. Not just our government here, but ALL governments and all businesses. The only alternative to living within those structure is a system with no formal government, which is... laughable, at best. Maybe he's a Libertarian? But I don't think even Libertarians have so much bile for basic human establishment as this guy seems to. My problem is that he talks a lot about the flaws of society, but doesn't really seem to get how or why society works, and doesn't propose any solutions for the problems he lists other than "fight the system." Again, that's a hallmark of the anarchist movement.

He is like a televangelist, I think. It's that thing where a person who wants to get popular makes "you, the viewer" the victim of whatever group he's opposing. Also, the idea of a system allowing for government criticism and job selection and independent businesses being called "slavery" kind of flies in the face of the ACTUAL slavery that happens around the world today. Seems disrespectful, at best, manipulative AND disrespectful at worst.


Yes, that's about right. He's not anarchist, though. He's using the tools given him by his society for all they're worth. After all, he didn't invent the fucking internet, did he? What's left to debunk?

Zadocfish2 wrote:Well, as for exposure... see all the other videos in the "debunking" section. Discussing ideas is an inherently worthwhile thing to do, I think.


I don't agree with you, here, because this one is obviously using his channel simply to try to make money. If you want to wring your hands about how the internet hands over an ideal audience to such people, knock yourself out. Take away the cheesy clichés from the video, and there isn't really anything about the virtues and vices of anarchism. "Free your mind!" he shouts, just like every other conspiracy theorist-cum-guru you've ever seen in "General Debunking".

So, OK. The floor is yours. What is there specifically to debunk about messages that do nothing more than shout "Free your mind!" to their witless audiences? Do you see the parallels with traditional religion?

Zadocfish2 wrote:I say he's specifically an anarchist because he's, well, advocating the position that government is an encroachment on freedom.


He's advocating it, but not defending it. I think you should try to become clear about the difference.
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Re: The Story of Your Enslavement

#11  Postby Zadocfish2 » Aug 31, 2017 3:09 am

I watched another video of his and... no, it's not anarchist, just ultra super-duper "the left is a big conspiracy" right-wing Trump-loving nutjob. Which is odd, since Trump is basically the crystallization of everything bad he says about society in the "slavery" video... Does he just say that stuff to get people to trust him, then push faulty political jargon until people pay him to keep talking?

Also the video was like 90% cheesy cliches about society, so it's easy to take away that he's saying "society is bad."

Anyways, here's the comment I made when I watched the video:

Huh. This guy really doesn't get how human society works... or he's spreading ignorance for his own political purposes. That's not uncommon. The fact that so many people are agreeing with him proves just how easy it is to get to people to agree with you by claiming that "you," the viewer, are the victim of whatever system they're against.

He talks a lot about "real freedom," but note how he never DEFINES a system that would result in that "freedom?" There's a reason for that. The "slavery" he talks about is inherent to any and all human social structure. It's a byproduct of living as a social species. Many times have people tried to organize a system without proper structure, but the fact is that once you get over about 100-200 people, the system will either collapse or require leadership, which this guy would automatically define as "slavery." We all have to live with human nature; the modern structure of society is just another in a long line of experiments in making an agreeable system of living. Its flaws, like the flaws in Communism, are byproducts of being run by human beings, who aren't perfect. Society is, by and large, a contract. "You stop other people from killing me and taking away my food, and I'll also agree to not kill people and take away their food." The creation and enforcement of rules is a necessary part of humanity. That's the root from which human society, in all its various forms, grows. Individually, humans can't do anything. We're too selfish to do much on our own. We're successful as a species because we work together, and social structure is the means by which we do so.

Once you can see the claims he's really trying to make, and understand how the subject matter in question works, his argument falls apart. If you can choose what to do, leave your job to find another one, make things with your own hands, speak against your government, and publish whatever thoughts you like, you are not a "slave," unless you consider every single, individual human ever born on this planet to have been a slave as well. The claim that any and all societal systems comprise "slavery" is disrespectful to the millions of people in the world today that are under the boot of ACTUAL slavery.

Of course, this guy has the right to say what he wants. It's a free country, after all.
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Re: The Story of Your Enslavement

#12  Postby Cito di Pense » Aug 31, 2017 3:15 am

Zadocfish2 wrote:I watched another video of his and... no, it's not anarchist, just ultra super-duper "the left is a big conspiracy" right-wing Trump-loving nutjob. Which is odd, since Trump is basically the crystallization of everything bad he says about society in the "slavery" video... Does he just say that stuff to get people to trust him, then push faulty political jargon until people pay him to keep talking?

Also the video was like 90% cheesy cliches about society, so it's easy to take away that he's saying "society is bad."


Are you regretting yet having wasted this much time on this? Try to develop a radar that allows you to switch off on such people before investing too much time on them. I apologize again for misreading your motivations in making your OP, but I don't apologize for concluding that, in posting it, you kind of went off half-cocked. [Unless, of course, you're doing something like pulling material together for an essay or term paper due in Psych, or PoliSci, or some course like that. It's a golden opportunity in that direction.]

You say "it's a free country, he can say what he wants", but I'm watching his video from the other side of the Atlantic. So, he's got 600K subs from a potential audience of a billion or two. The guy's not really doing that well, compared with Taylor Swift, who's cheating in a different direction, but not quite as hypocritically.
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Re: The Story of Your Enslavement

#13  Postby Zadocfish2 » Aug 31, 2017 3:22 am

Well, I guess that's true. Alright, fair enough.
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Re: The Story of Your Enslavement

#14  Postby Cito di Pense » Aug 31, 2017 3:27 am

Zadocfish2 wrote:Well, I guess that's true. Alright, fair enough.


As I added to my previous post, consider pulling your ideas together and writing the sort of essay you'd turn in for a course in Psychology, or Political Science, or Communications Studies on the topic of propaganda, or appeals to emotion, or something similar. Then it would become a more valuable investment of your time and might consolidate your capacities to switch such people off when you encounter them in the future.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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