Truth can't be defined without consciousness

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Truth can't be defined without consciousness

#1  Postby Chriliman » Mar 29, 2015 3:01 am

When using our subjective minds, how can we discover absolute truth in an objective reality? Does an absolute truth even exist?

For me the answer is that truth is always changing or being discovered so it can never be absolutely defined because our minds are bottled up in a subjective brain, we can't take ourselves out of our brains. The only possible way for us to understand absolute truth is if something with infinite knowledge consciously defines absolute truth and imparts it to us.

This leads to my idea of truth being undefined until a conscious mind discovers it. This is true for both subjective truth and objective truth. This also shows that truth cannot exists without a conscious mind to discover it. Is there an infinite consciousness out there to discover absolute truth?

Let me know your thoughts. Thanks!
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Truth can't be defined without consciousness

#2  Postby Chriliman » Mar 29, 2015 3:04 am

When using our subjective minds, how can we discover absolute truth in an objective reality? Does an absolute truth even exist?

For me the answer is that truth is always changing or being discovered so it can never be absolutely defined because our minds are bottled up in a subjective brain, we can't take ourselves out of our brains. The only possible way for us to understand absolute truth is if something with infinite knowledge consciously defines absolute truth and imparts it to us. Or absolute truth does not exist.

This leads to my idea of truth being undefined until a conscious mind discovers it. This is true for both subjective truth and objective truth. This also shows that truth cannot exists without a conscious mind to discover it. Is there an infinitely knowledgeable consciousness out there to discover absolute truth?

Let me know your thoughts. Thanks!
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Re: Truth can't be defined without consciousness

#3  Postby pcCoder » Mar 29, 2015 3:05 am

Personally, I don't like the word "truth" because of the various issues. As a species, we are constantly discovering new information and assimilating that information into our understanding of what we call reality. As such, as more information is obtained, sometimes the understanding changes. Rarely does new information completely overturn an existing understanding, however. Usually new information simply allows us to refine an existing understanding even more, such as discovering what the cause is for some anomaly in our existing understanding.
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Re: Truth can't be defined without consciousness

#4  Postby Thommo » Mar 29, 2015 3:19 am

Sounds like a semantic point regarding the difference between "truth" and truth to me. We can't find "trees" without consciousness, I'm not sure that means much to trees though.
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Re: Truth can't be defined without consciousness

#5  Postby SafeAsMilk » Mar 29, 2015 3:29 am

Chriliman wrote:When using our subjective minds, how can we discover absolute truth in an objective reality? Does an absolute truth even exist?

Sure enuff n' yes I do. If you apparently step out in front of an apparent bus as its hurtling down the apparent road, I guarantee it will hit you. You know this "truth", which is why you don't do it. You discover "truth" by testing observable reality for consistency. It doesn't matter if that's not the "truth truth", because if you can't even grant the consistency observed in the world is real, then you can't actually discover the "truth" about anything at all. You could just be a brain in a jar.

For me the answer is that truth is always changing or being discovered so it can never be absolutely defined because our minds are bottled up in a subjective brain, we can't take ourselves out of our brains.

Except we do it all the time. The scientific method is perhaps the best example of this. You test for consistency outside of your subjective view of things.

The only possible way for us to understand absolute truth is if something with infinite knowledge consciously defines absolute truth and imparts it to us.

Don't you think something with infinite knowledge could figure out a way to express this to you without needing the weary mental gymnastics you're doing here? You have no way of even knowing that you're getting your "truth" from an actual infinitely knowledgable being. Since you've discarded testing for consistency as a valid means of discovering "truth", how can you possibly tell if this being is deceiving you?

This leads to my idea of truth being undefined until a conscious mind discovers it. This is true for both subjective truth and objective truth. This also shows that truth cannot exists without a conscious mind to discover it.

That does not follow at all. A rock is solid whether you observe it or not. You must accept this, otherwise you may as well be a brain in a jar for all you can tell.

Is there an infinite consciousness out there to discover absolute truth?

Seems unlikely.

Let me know your thoughts. Thanks!

:cheers: I think part of the problem is you're throwing out words like "truth" without actually defining what you mean by them. It's a wooly word, and generally not very useful.
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Re: Truth can't be defined without consciousness

#6  Postby SafeAsMilk » Mar 29, 2015 3:29 am

Thommo wrote:Sounds like a semantic point regarding the difference between "truth" and truth to me. We can't find "trees" without consciousness, I'm not sure that means much to trees though.

Ah, there you go trying to tell us the truth about trees again. Get back to your jar :nono:
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Re: Truth can't be defined without consciousness

#7  Postby SafeAsMilk » Mar 29, 2015 3:31 am

Also, this thread makes me want to watch Dark Star again.
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Re: Truth can't be defined without consciousness

#8  Postby RealityRules » Mar 29, 2015 3:32 am

Objectivity is based on objective methodologies; such as -

  • Logic via Formal Argument;
      + sound Deductive argument (true inter-related premises that lead to a true conclusion)
      + cogent Inductive argument (valid inter-related premises from which we can induce a cogent conclusion)
  • the Scientific Method;

  • the Historical Method
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Re: Truth can't be defined without consciousness

#9  Postby pcCoder » Mar 29, 2015 3:44 am

I think the key word in the topic title is not "truth" but "defined". Just by semantics alone, nothing can really be defined without a consciousness because the act of defining is one that is to provide a meaning for something that can be understood by others (okay, Webster probably has a better definition). A reality, and thus a truth for all practical purposes, could well exist without a consciousness, there just wouldn't be anyone either aware of that reality's existence or there to provide a definition for a word that reflects that existence.

Now we could get into games like, are we real, are we just a brain in a vat, etc, but I see little point in that. Even if that is the case and everything is some sort of illusion, as long as things behave consistently, we may as well act as if that illusion is reality.

Still, I tend to dislike the word "truth". I hear it used by politicians, conspiracy theorists, religious groups, lawyers, etc. enough that it begins to feel more like a dirty word to me.
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Re: Truth can't be defined without consciousness

#10  Postby Calilasseia » Mar 29, 2015 4:30 am

Chriliman wrote:When using our subjective minds, how can we discover absolute truth in an objective reality? Does an absolute truth even exist?


Try "is a given statement congruent with an observable data set, or derivable from formal axioms?". This is how 'truth' is usually conceived.

Chriliman wrote:For me the answer is that truth is always changing or being discovered so it can never be absolutely defined because our minds are bottled up in a subjective brain, we can't take ourselves out of our brains.


The world's mathematicians, amongst others, just pointed and laughed.

Chriliman wrote:The only possible way for us to understand absolute truth is if something with infinite knowledge consciously defines absolute truth and imparts it to us.


Poppycock. Read my opening statement above.

Chriliman wrote:This leads to my idea of truth being undefined until a conscious mind discovers it.


Wrong. The requisite congruence can exist, even if no one thinks about it. Falling rocks will still behave in accordance with the operating principles of gravity, regardless of whether anyone is there to watch them.

Chriliman wrote:This is true for both subjective truth and objective truth. This also shows that truth cannot exists without a conscious mind to discover it.


Wrong. See above.

Chriliman wrote:Is there an infinite consciousness out there to discover absolute truth?


None needed. See above.

Chriliman wrote:Let me know your thoughts. Thanks!


See above.
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Re: Truth can't be defined without consciousness

#11  Postby Goldenmane » Mar 29, 2015 4:37 am

Is there a limit to the number of times the OP is going to start the same fucking thread?
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Re: Truth can't be defined without consciousness

#12  Postby Macdoc » Mar 29, 2015 4:53 am

"Truth" is a horrid word.

Try fact and process...both requiring verification. Leave "truth" to the wibblers.
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Re: Truth can't be defined without consciousness

#13  Postby hackenslash » Mar 29, 2015 5:44 am

This thread brought to you by Post-Count-UpTM.

It always amuses me to see such thought-free drivel treated by its erector as the most startlingly incisive wisdom.

A word of advice for the OP: Wanking is more intelligent and it's good for you.
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Re: Truth can't be defined without consciousness

#14  Postby Blackadder » Mar 29, 2015 6:20 am

When using our arseholes, how can we discover our shit in an evidence free dung-pile? Does our shit even exist?

For me the answer is that our shit is always changing or starting new threads so it can never be absolutely defined because our arseholes are bottled up by unsubstantiated assertions, we can't rid ourselves of unsubstantiated assertions. The only possible way for us to understand shit is if something with infinite patience patiently explains unsubstantiated assertions and imparts some fucking logic to us. Or shit does not exist.

This leads to my idea of shit being undefined until a dung-collector discovers it. This is true for both my personal shit and shit in general. This also shows that shit cannot exist without a dung-collector to discover it. Is there an infinitely patient shit-idea-recycling facility out there to discover unsubstantiated claptrap?
That credulity should be gross in proportion to the ignorance of the mind that it enslaves, is in strict consistency with the principle of human nature. - Percy Bysshe Shelley
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Re: Truth can't be defined without consciousness

#15  Postby Nebogipfel » Mar 29, 2015 10:13 am

This sounds like Mick's old hobby-horse of how it could not be true that the sun was bigger than the Earth unless there was someone around to have concepts like "true" and "false" and "bigger than".

:crazy:
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Re: Truth can't be defined without consciousness

#16  Postby Blip » Mar 29, 2015 12:05 pm


!
GENERAL MODNOTE
Chriliman, please don't start multiple threads on the same topic.
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