UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#241  Postby ORZIL » Nov 27, 2019 6:59 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
ORZIL wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
ORZIL wrote:
How did you reach that conlucsion?
what is your empirical evidence?


You may need to re-translate what is written above.

There is no empirical evidence or logical evidence for ghosts.

You replied asking for empirical evidence.

If you are the proponent of ghosts' existence, it is your duty to supply that evidence, particularly if you wish to claim that there is evidence.

The view that the existence or nonexistence of spirits is currently unknown but not necessarily unknowable; therefore, we will retain judgment until evidence, if any, becomes available.
Can only the scientific method provide evidence?
if so, why?



Do you have empirical evidence, or do you not have empirical evidence?

I think you'd agree that I have been very willing to answer your questions, but you don't seem willing to respond with anything other than more questions. Is there any substance here, or do you just have lots of questions?

You've staked some claims: can you support those claims or not?

I only have anecdotal evidence.
Is there only personal evidence here?
own experience ?
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#242  Postby Spearthrower » Nov 27, 2019 7:45 pm

ORZIL wrote:
I only have anecdotal evidence.
Is there only personal evidence here?
own experience ?


You are perfectly entitled to find your own personal experiences convincing, and you certainly don't need to ask other people permission to believe in the things which you feel you've experienced.

However, you can't expect your personal experiences to be convincing to other people. Other people have no access to your personal experience to independently verify. You can't appeal to your experiences as 'evidence' because your personal experiences just are not at all evident to anyone other than you.

You think you saw a ghost in X place at Y time... but I cannot visit X place at Y time to verify your experience.

Perhaps if I had been there, I would have seen a ghost too, then it would also be my personal experience which I could also find convincing.

But perhaps if I had been there then I wouldn't have seen a ghost at all, or perhaps I'd have seen something quite mundane that you mistook for a ghost.

We will never know because that moment is permanently inaccessible to me; consequently you have to understand that the alleged event isn't convincing for me and cannot be appealed to in order to convince me.


Anecdotes are stories told from one person's perspective - they cannot help to determine the existence of alleged entities. People can lie, people can fail to spot crucial details, people can be mistaken, people can create false memories unconsciously, people can hallucinate, and people are emotional creatures whose brains can sometimes undergo stress, conditioning, or enculturation that make them perceive things in terms of their preloaded suppositions.
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#243  Postby Spearthrower » Nov 27, 2019 7:53 pm

ORZIL wrote:
I only have anecdotal evidence.


So the actual answer to the question about empirical evidence is "no" - you don't have any empirical evidence.

And that answers your other question as to why skeptics don't lend belief to claims about ghosts. No good reason to believe has been offered by those claiming that ghosts exist.

The other issue, aside from the lack of empirical evidence, is the logical problems with the concept of ghosts. I already referred to this before - every interaction in the universe has a fundamental thermodynamic property; ghosts would be contradictory to this and would mean that every observation we've ever made is incomplete. The comparative weight of evidence is massively - stupendously - overwhelmingly in favour of a description of the universe which does not and cannot include ghosts.

Consequently, the burden of proof for someone claiming the existence of ghosts is correspondingly very high. There'd need to be very, very good reasons offered to accept the claim.

Unless I am mistaken, you don't have very good reasons to accept the claim. As far as I am aware, you don't really have any reasons at all for other people to accept your claim. So I would say that you should not expect people to accept the claim - no one can stop you believing in anything you like, for any reason you like, but expecting other people to accept that belief is unreasonable.
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#244  Postby Spearthrower » Nov 27, 2019 8:03 pm

Anecdotal claim:

Yesterday, I went to the local Sainsbury's supermarket and bought some fish, bread, and cucumbers to make dinner. On the way home, I met an old friend from school I hadn't seen for years who'd won the lottery and was traveling the world. Just after saying goodbye to him, I saw a dog running along the street suddenly take off and fly over a building, disappearing into the clouds high above.


So there's my anecdote.

How do you, Orzil, respond to my anecdote?

Do you find it all believable?

Should you lend belief to all of my anecdote simply because I say it's my personal experience?

Are you not more skeptical about some elements of it than others?

Are you now obliged to believe that my anecdote is 100% reported fact and consequently incorporate all of that into your assumptions about the way the universe works?

Break it down and explain whether you accept each part of my story or not, and why you do or don't accept each part.
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#245  Postby laklak » Nov 27, 2019 8:23 pm

I buy it all except Sainsburys, I've never seen one in Bangkok.
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#246  Postby Thommo » Nov 27, 2019 8:50 pm

Same thing crossed my mind. I don't buy it.
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#247  Postby ORZIL » Nov 27, 2019 9:14 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
ORZIL wrote:
I only have anecdotal evidence.
Is there only personal evidence here?
own experience ?


You are perfectly entitled to find your own personal experiences convincing, and you certainly don't need to ask other people permission to believe in the things which you feel you've experienced.

However, you can't expect your personal experiences to be convincing to other people. Other people have no access to your personal experience to independently verify. You can't appeal to your experiences as 'evidence' because your personal experiences just are not at all evident to anyone other than you.

You think you saw a ghost in X place at Y time... but I cannot visit X place at Y time to verify your experience.

Perhaps if I had been there, I would have seen a ghost too, then it would also be my personal experience which I could also find convincing.

But perhaps if I had been there then I wouldn't have seen a ghost at all, or perhaps I'd have seen something quite mundane that you mistook for a ghost.

We will never know because that moment is permanently inaccessible to me; consequently you have to understand that the alleged event isn't convincing for me and cannot be appealed to in order to convince me.


Anecdotes are stories told from one person's perspective - they cannot help to determine the existence of alleged entities. People can lie, people can fail to spot crucial details, people can be mistaken, people can create false memories unconsciously, people can hallucinate, and people are emotional creatures whose brains can sometimes undergo stress, conditioning, or enculturation that make them perceive things in terms of their preloaded suppositions.

The Plural of Anecdote is Data
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#248  Postby ORZIL » Nov 27, 2019 9:20 pm

Svartalf wrote:absence of evidence seems, in the current case, seem to be worth a licence to ignore and regard as woo, if not a full case of evidence of absence.

if the belief in such beings is not supported by anything verifiable, Ockham's razor dictates that the importance of the purported being is null and negligible.


Existential Fallacy of Data :think:
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#249  Postby Thommo » Nov 27, 2019 9:24 pm

Those seem to rely on a subtlety of English semantics that you very recently denied having.

I feel like we've seen this Damascene conversion here before.
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#250  Postby Svartalf » Nov 27, 2019 10:15 pm

Do I suspect a false flag op?
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#251  Postby Fallible » Nov 27, 2019 10:55 pm

Yep, sock written all over it.
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#252  Postby Spearthrower » Nov 28, 2019 2:15 am

ORZIL wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
ORZIL wrote:
I only have anecdotal evidence.
Is there only personal evidence here?
own experience ?


You are perfectly entitled to find your own personal experiences convincing, and you certainly don't need to ask other people permission to believe in the things which you feel you've experienced.

However, you can't expect your personal experiences to be convincing to other people. Other people have no access to your personal experience to independently verify. You can't appeal to your experiences as 'evidence' because your personal experiences just are not at all evident to anyone other than you.

You think you saw a ghost in X place at Y time... but I cannot visit X place at Y time to verify your experience.

Perhaps if I had been there, I would have seen a ghost too, then it would also be my personal experience which I could also find convincing.

But perhaps if I had been there then I wouldn't have seen a ghost at all, or perhaps I'd have seen something quite mundane that you mistook for a ghost.

We will never know because that moment is permanently inaccessible to me; consequently you have to understand that the alleged event isn't convincing for me and cannot be appealed to in order to convince me.


Anecdotes are stories told from one person's perspective - they cannot help to determine the existence of alleged entities. People can lie, people can fail to spot crucial details, people can be mistaken, people can create false memories unconsciously, people can hallucinate, and people are emotional creatures whose brains can sometimes undergo stress, conditioning, or enculturation that make them perceive things in terms of their preloaded suppositions.

The Plural of Anecdote is Data



1) Wrong - it's not in any language.

2) Your refusal to ever engage with substance is looking very suspicious now.

I've responded openly and substantively to you. Show you're capable of doing the same.
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#253  Postby Spearthrower » Nov 28, 2019 2:19 am

ORZIL wrote:
Svartalf wrote:absence of evidence seems, in the current case, seem to be worth a licence to ignore and regard as woo, if not a full case of evidence of absence.

if the belief in such beings is not supported by anything verifiable, Ockham's razor dictates that the importance of the purported being is null and negligible.


Existential Fallacy of Data :think:



A few words without any substance, and without an attempt to engage, and without apparently even reading the post you're nominally replying to.

Stop right now Orzil and think for a moment about how you intend to go forward from here because if this is how you're going to behave, then you will be treated accordingly and it will be entirely your fault.
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#254  Postby Svartalf » Nov 28, 2019 10:58 am

Spearthrower wrote:
ORZIL wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
ORZIL wrote:
I only have anecdotal evidence.
Is there only personal evidence here?
own experience ?


You are perfectly entitled to find your own personal experiences convincing, and you certainly don't need to ask other people permission to believe in the things which you feel you've experienced.

However, you can't expect your personal experiences to be convincing to other people. Other people have no access to your personal experience to independently verify. You can't appeal to your experiences as 'evidence' because your personal experiences just are not at all evident to anyone other than you.

You think you saw a ghost in X place at Y time... but I cannot visit X place at Y time to verify your experience.

Perhaps if I had been there, I would have seen a ghost too, then it would also be my personal experience which I could also find convincing.

But perhaps if I had been there then I wouldn't have seen a ghost at all, or perhaps I'd have seen something quite mundane that you mistook for a ghost.

We will never know because that moment is permanently inaccessible to me; consequently you have to understand that the alleged event isn't convincing for me and cannot be appealed to in order to convince me.


Anecdotes are stories told from one person's perspective - they cannot help to determine the existence of alleged entities. People can lie, people can fail to spot crucial details, people can be mistaken, people can create false memories unconsciously, people can hallucinate, and people are emotional creatures whose brains can sometimes undergo stress, conditioning, or enculturation that make them perceive things in terms of their preloaded suppositions.

The Plural of Anecdote is Data



1) Wrong - it's not in any language.

2) Your refusal to ever engage with substance is looking very suspicious now.

I've responded openly and substantively to you. Show you're capable of doing the same.

I support my pointy stick hurling colleague, data is not multiple of anecdotes, there's a qualitative difference between the information provided by either term, in that data was obtained under controlable conditions and can be verified and repeated.

and the more I see you posting, the more you remind me of JJ.
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#255  Postby ORZIL » Dec 08, 2019 10:49 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
ORZIL wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
ORZIL wrote:
I only have anecdotal evidence.
Is there only personal evidence here?
own experience ?


You are perfectly entitled to find your own personal experiences convincing, and you certainly don't need to ask other people permission to believe in the things which you feel you've experienced.

However, you can't expect your personal experiences to be convincing to other people. Other people have no access to your personal experience to independently verify. You can't appeal to your experiences as 'evidence' because your personal experiences just are not at all evident to anyone other than you.

You think you saw a ghost in X place at Y time... but I cannot visit X place at Y time to verify your experience.

Perhaps if I had been there, I would have seen a ghost too, then it would also be my personal experience which I could also find convincing.

But perhaps if I had been there then I wouldn't have seen a ghost at all, or perhaps I'd have seen something quite mundane that you mistook for a ghost.

We will never know because that moment is permanently inaccessible to me; consequently you have to understand that the alleged event isn't convincing for me and cannot be appealed to in order to convince me.


Anecdotes are stories told from one person's perspective - they cannot help to determine the existence of alleged entities. People can lie, people can fail to spot crucial details, people can be mistaken, people can create false memories unconsciously, people can hallucinate, and people are emotional creatures whose brains can sometimes undergo stress, conditioning, or enculturation that make them perceive things in terms of their preloaded suppositions.

The Plural of Anecdote is Data



1) Wrong - it's not in any language.

2) Your refusal to ever engage with substance is looking very suspicious now.

I've responded openly and substantively to you. Show you're capable of doing the same.

this video is
anecdotal evidence?
enable video captioning in English language

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n44_E0sT4mE :smile:
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#256  Postby Fallible » Dec 08, 2019 10:50 pm

Boring.
She battled through in every kind of tribulation,
She revelled in adventure and imagination.
She never listened to no hater, liar,
Breaking boundaries and chasing fire.
Oh, my my! Oh my, she flies!
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#257  Postby Spearthrower » Dec 09, 2019 5:22 am

ORZIL wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
ORZIL wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:

You are perfectly entitled to find your own personal experiences convincing, and you certainly don't need to ask other people permission to believe in the things which you feel you've experienced.

However, you can't expect your personal experiences to be convincing to other people. Other people have no access to your personal experience to independently verify. You can't appeal to your experiences as 'evidence' because your personal experiences just are not at all evident to anyone other than you.

You think you saw a ghost in X place at Y time... but I cannot visit X place at Y time to verify your experience.

Perhaps if I had been there, I would have seen a ghost too, then it would also be my personal experience which I could also find convincing.

But perhaps if I had been there then I wouldn't have seen a ghost at all, or perhaps I'd have seen something quite mundane that you mistook for a ghost.

We will never know because that moment is permanently inaccessible to me; consequently you have to understand that the alleged event isn't convincing for me and cannot be appealed to in order to convince me.


Anecdotes are stories told from one person's perspective - they cannot help to determine the existence of alleged entities. People can lie, people can fail to spot crucial details, people can be mistaken, people can create false memories unconsciously, people can hallucinate, and people are emotional creatures whose brains can sometimes undergo stress, conditioning, or enculturation that make them perceive things in terms of their preloaded suppositions.

The Plural of Anecdote is Data



1) Wrong - it's not in any language.

2) Your refusal to ever engage with substance is looking very suspicious now.

I've responded openly and substantively to you. Show you're capable of doing the same.

this video is
anecdotal evidence?
enable video captioning in English language

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n44_E0sT4mE :smile:



I don't know what that video is because I am not prepared to look at it until you start putting in some effort yourself to understand the other side of the conversation.

I've responded to all your questions with honesty and substance.

But you're not responding in a similar way. Even when I ask you to respond, you reply with nothing but a question.

Even a friendly discussion is like a game of tennis - you hit the ball to me, I hit it back to you... you don't get to keep hitting balls at me and expect me to continue playing tennis.
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#258  Postby Hermit » Dec 09, 2019 6:57 am

ORZIL wrote:
this video is
anecdotal evidence?
enable video captioning in English language

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n44_E0sT4mE :smile:

Anecdotes are not evidence. They are stories. Evidence for the existence of hypotheses such as, say, rebirth would be an experiment that can be reproduced and that would result in essentially the same outcome every time with each repetition.

After reading along for three minutes it became obvious to me that your storyteller was not going to provide such evidence in the remaining nine minutes, so I closed the tab the video played in.
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#259  Postby BlackBart » Dec 09, 2019 9:28 am

Yup. Mere anecdote therefore worthless. Anything else we can spoon-feed you about?
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#260  Postby ORZIL » Dec 12, 2019 11:46 am

Spearthrower wrote:
ORZIL wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
ORZIL wrote:
The Plural of Anecdote is Data



1) Wrong - it's not in any language.

2) Your refusal to ever engage with substance is looking very suspicious now.

I've responded openly and substantively to you. Show you're capable of doing the same.

this video is
anecdotal evidence?
enable video captioning in English language

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n44_E0sT4mE :smile:



I don't know what that video is because I am not prepared to look at it until you start putting in some effort yourself to understand the other side of the conversation.

I've responded to all your questions with honesty and substance.

But you're not responding in a similar way. Even when I ask you to respond, you reply with nothing but a question.

Even a friendly discussion is like a game of tennis - you hit the ball to me, I hit it back to you... you don't get to keep hitting balls at me and expect me to continue playing tennis.

this subject
in this forum
should be prohibited
because there is no
empirical evidence
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