Advice for Believers

Christianity, Islam, Other Religions & Belief Systems.

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Re: Advice for Believers

#141  Postby Pebble » Feb 05, 2017 3:00 pm

Dark energy wrote:
:lol: :lol:
nah,we just want to have both way,enjoy this infinitely small mortal life and hopefully the afterlife. :popcorn:


Don't you ever wonder why an omniscient being would demand incessant ritualistic behavior of no practical value during the short sojourn in this place? Aggravated by providing no verifiable evidence that such actions are of any merit.
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Re: Advice for Believers

#142  Postby Dark energy » Feb 05, 2017 3:48 pm

Pebble wrote:
Dark energy wrote:
:lol: :lol:
nah,we just want to have both way,enjoy this infinitely small mortal life and hopefully the afterlife. :popcorn:


Don't you ever wonder why an omniscient being would demand incessant ritualistic behavior of no practical value during the short sojourn in this place? Aggravated by providing no verifiable evidence that such actions are of any merit.


It might have no value in materialistic world but these short ritualistic behaviors are worth it,I would like to have a proof which can be tested again and again in the laboratory but we are still looking for that quantifiable evidence .

interesting that The Solar system, galaxies,the planet Earth, every plant, animal and
human has a well-consided structure.why is that so? for me ,it means and points to the creator, not blind nature like my atheists friends like to argue. For the building
particles - atoms and molecules still follow a pattern,that is enough to convince me of the designer.

p.s
God takes 25 min out of 1440 of my daily life that is 0.01666666666 quite insignificant according to calculations but what matters is intentions.
And."
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Re: Advice for Believers

#143  Postby Pebble » Feb 05, 2017 4:01 pm

Dark energy wrote:

It might have no value in materialistic world but these short ritualistic behaviors are worth it,I would like to have a proof which can be tested again and again in the laboratory but we are still looking for that quantifiable evidence .

interesting that The Solar system, galaxies,the planet Earth, every plant, animal and
human has a well-consided structure.why is that so? for me ,it means and points to the creator, not blind nature like my atheists friends like to argue. For the building
particles - atoms and molecules still follow a pattern,that is enough to convince me of the designer.


Really, to me the absolute opposite. I see a universe in which our existence is merely incidental.

Natural disasters; congenital diseases; degenerative diseases; obligate pathogens etc - what is that all about?

If we are so special why is 99.999%+ of the universe totally uninhabitable for life?

Why does everything appear to follow fixed laws, with no evidence of external influences?




Dark energy wrote:
p.s
God takes 25 min out of 1440 of my daily life that is 0.01666666666 quite insignificant according to calculations but what matters is intentions.



You have been handed down certain rituals by your elders - what evidence do you have that god has any interest in such actions? Any god worth his salt would regard your opinion of him as entirely irrelevant, if he had a purpose for you - that should be the only activity required.
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Re: Advice for Believers

#144  Postby Thommo » Feb 05, 2017 4:02 pm

Dark energy wrote:God takes 25 min out of 1440 of my daily life that is 0.01666666666 quite insignificant according to calculations but what matters is intentions.


25/1440 = 0.174 or 1.7% of the day. This probably isn't insignificant (and presumably assumes that you never spend any time going to the mosque, which is perhaps unusual).

Out of interest, what is the difference between a structure and a "well-considered structure"? How would we know that the solar system, galaxy, planets and similar have "well-considered structures"?
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Re: Advice for Believers

#145  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Feb 05, 2017 4:05 pm

Dark energy wrote:
interesting that The Solar system, galaxies,the planet Earth, every plant, animal and
human has a well-consided structure.why is that so?

You have not demonstrated that it is so.
The mere fact that humans posses mutliple redundant organs, some of which can cause health risks, should tell you something.


Dark energy wrote: for me ,it means and points to the creator,

If you honestly examine your views, you'll most likely find that you start from the position of the existence of a creator and then interpet the world around you with that presumption.


Dark energy wrote: not blind nature like my atheists friends like to argue.

Nature has no eyes. It cannot be blind.


Dark energy wrote:For the building
particles - atoms and molecules still follow a pattern,that is enough to convince me of the designer.

Then you're convinced by faulty reasoning.

Dark energy wrote:
p.s
God takes 25 min out of 1440 of my daily life that is 0.01666666666 quite insignificant according to calculations but what matters is intentions.

It's still time wasted on an irrational belief.
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Re: Advice for Believers

#146  Postby Calilasseia » Feb 05, 2017 9:29 pm

Dark energy wrote:
Pebble wrote:
Dark energy wrote:
:lol: :lol:
nah,we just want to have both way,enjoy this infinitely small mortal life and hopefully the afterlife. :popcorn:


Don't you ever wonder why an omniscient being would demand incessant ritualistic behavior of no practical value during the short sojourn in this place? Aggravated by providing no verifiable evidence that such actions are of any merit.


It might have no value in materialistic world


This presumes in advance that there exists any other world to concern ourselves about, which is one of those core mythological assertions that remains unsupported by evidence. The onus is on those treating this assertion as fact, to demonstrate the factual nature of this assertion, and thus far, supernaturalists have had 5,000 years in which to do so, during which time they have all failed.

Dark energy wrote:but these short ritualistic behaviors are worth it


The mere fact that many here regard said ritualistic behaviours as superfluous to requirements and irrelevant, from the standpoint either of leading a full and meaningful life, or of acquiring useful substantive knowledge, should be telling you something important here. As should the fact that there are other people, who, as a result of adherence to different mythologies, based upon assertions that are incompatible with the assertions of your chosen mythology, say exactly the same thing about the ritualistic behaviours arising from their choices of mythology.

Indeed, that's a central critique of the entire supernaturalist enterprise that I present frequently here. Namely, that humans have invented a multitude of mythologies, all based upon the treatment of unsupported assertions as purportedly constituting fact, and supernaturalists cannot agree amongst themselves on a global scale, which of these mythologies is purportedly the "right" mythology. Worse still, even self-proclaimed adherents of a particular mythology, cannot agree amongst themselves what that mythology is purportedly telling us. See:schism.

Dark energy wrote:I would like to have a proof which can be tested again and again in the laboratory but we are still looking for that quantifiable evidence .


Good luck with that one, given the complete failure of supernaturalists to find evidence supporting even peripheral mythological assertions, let alone core assertions.

Dark energy wrote:interesting that The Solar system, galaxies,the planet Earth, every plant, animal and human has a well-consided structure.


Correction. These are entities possessing an observable structure. Nothing about the observable structures in question points to these structures being the product of sentient intent. On the other hand, there are truckloads of peer reviewed scientific papers, containing evidence that testable natural processes are sufficient to account for those structures.

Take biology. The arrangement of tissues was given its first in-depth insights by a seminal paper, written by Alan Turing in 1952 (yes, the same Alan Turing who was a central figure in the cracking of the WWII Enigma code). In that paper, he proposed a mathematical model, in which growth promoters and repressors diffused through tissues in accordance with a well-defined set of partial differential equations, and demonstrated that said model was capable of reproducing a wide variety of observed biological structures. Since that paper was written, more work has been performed in the field, and as evidence of this, I have 18 papers in my collection, devoted to the application of this model to papilio dardanus mimetic wing patterns alone. Recently, a candidate polygene responsible for those wing patterns has been identified as the invected gene, courtesy of this recent paper in Proc. R. Soc. Lond. B., which adds a 19th paper to my collection with respect to this topic. A later paper, namely this one, used higher resolution genetic analysis to home in on another candidate, the engrailed gene, which happens to reside adjacent to the invected gene on the requisite butterfly chromosomes. That paper brings the total in my collection to 20.

As for physics, you might be shocked to learn that Isaac Newton alighted upon the reason for the structure of Earth, the Solar System and galaxies back in 1667, courtesy of gravity. Again, much work has been completed since that date, and as a result, the manner in which gravity can generate such structures is now well understood, to the point where NASA has been able to use that knowledge to plan gravity-assistance spaceflight trajectories of stunning precision. For example, using that knowledge, NASA was able to guide the Cassini-Huygens mission to Titan, a mission involving a 7 year spaceflight and three gravity assists (one past Venus, one past the Earth, and a third past Jupiter), and a flight journey of some 7 billion miles, at the end of which the mission planners were able to park the spacecraft in orbit around Titan, to within 100 metres of where they wanted it to be. Now gravity is as mindless an entity as one could wish for, yet, its action permits the emergence of a vast range of structured entities. Even if one uses the computationally simpler Newtonian model, as opposed to the more precise, but far more involved model from General Relativity, it is still possible to model the behaviour of a vast range of entities to exquisite precision. With access to the requisite experts, and powerful enough computers, even more stunning results can be derived from the relativistic model, including results that are beyond the remit of the Newtonian model (frame-dragging etc). Among the successes arising from such work, we have the planetary accretion model for planet formation, which now enjoys observational support from the use of space based telescopes.

Indeed, the entire motivation for the hypothesis of dark matter, centres upon the deviation of observed galaxy rotation from the model. Since the models we have of gravity work so well elsewhere, and it's extremely difficult to produce an alternative model that still accounts for all of the observations with which the current model is in accord, the simplest approach was taken, namely asking what would happen, if missing mass was added to the model. Adding the missing mass, in an approximately spherical distribution, resulted in the model's behaviour matching observed galaxy behaviour far more closely, and reproducing the elusive galaxy rotation curves that were so difficult to reproduce beforehand.

Now, of course, there exists the question of what form this missing mass takes, if it does indeed exist, and why it was not detected before. Since all the previously known matter was detected via its interaction with electromagnetic radiation (e.g., light), it was then hypothesised that this new form of matter, if it does indeed exist, is a form of matter that simply does not interact with electromagnetic radiation (or the electromagnetic force) at all, hence the term "dark matter". It is, of course, hypothesised to interact with gravity, a necessary condition if it is to form the basis of the solution to the galaxy rotation problem, but this leaves open the question of the other forces, namely the weak and strong nuclear forces. The two favoured possibilities centre on interaction (or not) with the weak nuclear force, as this would not open up scattering problems that might affect strong nuclear interactions. Of course, direct detection of this matter still remains an unfulfilled experimental goal, but given the manner in which the dark matter hypothesis explains a number of observations, including weak gravitational lensing, competing theories still have to account for these other observations, as well as providing differential predictions allowing decisive test.

And at this point, this is where I introduce the essential principle that differentiates scientific theories from mythological assertions. Namely, in the world of scientific theories, systemic failure to account for observed data, eventually leads to that theory being falsified, and discarded in favour of another. Data is king in the world of science, and no matter how ugly the data, no amount of theoretical elegance can overcome failure to match the data. Mythological assertions, on the other hand, are dispensed as purportedly constituting "absolute truth", and any contrary data is hand-waved away with apologetic fabrications. Another reason that many here reject mythological assertions, over and above the complete absence of any corroborating data, or in numerous cases, data that actively refutes those assertions.

Moving on ...

Dark energy wrote:Why is that so?


It isn't so. It's an illusion. See above.

Dark energy wrote:for me ,it means and points to the creator, not blind nature like my atheists friends like to argue.


Except that testable natural processes enjoy massive empirical support. Mythologically asserted supernatural entities enjoy zero empirical support. Game over.

Dark energy wrote:For the building particles - atoms and molecules still follow a pattern,that is enough to convince me of the designer.


Again, completely wrong. Look up "Pauli exclusion principle". Which explains exquisitely the Periodic Table.

Meanwhile, care to explain what sort of "designer" would arrange for the existence of Carabid beetles, which have fully functional wings under their elytra, but which will never use them because those elytra are fused shut?

Dark energy wrote:p.s God takes 25 min out of 1440 of my daily life that is 0.01666666666 quite insignificant according to calculations but what matters is intentions.


Actually, I think you'll find what really matters, if you want to make real progress, is ensuring that your ideas are in accord with the data. Because if they aren't, it doesn't matter how many good intentions you have, you're doomed to failure from the onset.
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Re: Advice for Believers

#147  Postby Pebble » Feb 05, 2017 10:30 pm

Calilasseia wrote:
Dark energy wrote:
Pebble wrote:
Dark energy wrote:


'Dark Energy' has vanished - perhaps converted to mass following standard equations!
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Re: Advice for Believers

#148  Postby Scot Dutchy » Feb 06, 2017 11:38 am

I see socks hanging outside.
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Re: Advice for Believers

#149  Postby Dark energy » Feb 06, 2017 4:09 pm

I have to admit that it is difficult for me to debate with the likes of CALI because he looks more acknowledgeable than me in these matters.we are on different wavelenghts.
i am after just a wanna-be scientist,theist who just ended up in this forum accidentally .
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Re: Advice for Believers

#150  Postby Sendraks » Feb 06, 2017 4:13 pm

Dark energy wrote:
i am after just a wanna-be scientist,theist who just ended up in this forum accidentally .


The process of completing registration with the forum is not one that readily lends itself to being accidental. Whilst you might have stumbled onto the forum by chance, the odds of you completing the registration process "by accident" are vanishingly small.
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Re: Advice for Believers

#151  Postby Scot Dutchy » Feb 06, 2017 4:50 pm

Especially when you know the way.
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Re: Advice for Believers

#152  Postby Weaver » Feb 06, 2017 5:02 pm

Rachel Bronwyn wrote:Was it a big exciting thing? I don't remember it happening. Going to look. Hopefully it's worth a few lols.

It was the usual with booting trolls here - those who were engaged with him regularly had plenty of evidence of this trolling, then there was a long Feedback thread featuring someone who never engaged with him stating that he doesn't see what the problem is, and doesn't think we should ban trolls. We went round and round for a while before the Mods finally had time to kick the ball around some more, look at his historical record, and decide that there was no changing his behaviors through the usual sanction process and that he had to go.

Then he was spotted in dank corners of the Interwebs bragging about how he'd been kicked off of here, and how stupid we all were, and how he considered getting booted from here another notch on his gun or something.
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Re: Advice for Believers

#153  Postby Scot Dutchy » Feb 06, 2017 5:10 pm

I often thought at one time there was a club as the posting varied so much also English was not their main language so the variation was enormous.
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Re: Advice for Believers

#154  Postby solazy » Feb 06, 2017 5:16 pm

Does any theist know why God created so many galaxies if all His people are here on earth.

https://phys.org/news/2017-01-universe- ... axies.html

Wasteful, but clearly not lazy like me.
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Re: Advice for Believers

#155  Postby Scot Dutchy » Feb 06, 2017 5:24 pm

solazy wrote:Does any theist know why God created so many galaxies if all His people are here on earth.

https://phys.org/news/2017-01-universe- ... axies.html

Wasteful, but clearly not lazy like me.


This of course is the really stupid idea. Why a small rock orbiting a third rate star is the centre of the universe? They did not know what space was. In islam the sun falls into a puddle every evening. Never mind the problems with fasting during Ramadan.
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Re: Advice for Believers

#156  Postby Dark energy » Feb 06, 2017 7:03 pm

solazy wrote:Does any theist know why God created so many galaxies if all His people are here on earth.

https://phys.org/news/2017-01-universe- ... axies.html

Wasteful, but clearly not lazy like me.


God never said all his creations are here,i dont know where you got that info from,in fact,he might have created more/less advanced civilizations and didnt tell us about.so,do you think these trillion galaxies that seem to need almost an infinite amount of energy to operate such came by selves,with no purpose. :ask:
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Re: Advice for Believers

#157  Postby Weaver » Feb 06, 2017 8:34 pm

It's pretty clear that the Christian god, at least, considers Earth to be unique and special:

John 3:16 and other such tripe.
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Re: Advice for Believers

#158  Postby Blackadder » Feb 06, 2017 8:36 pm

Dark energy wrote:.so,do you think these trillion galaxies that seem to need almost an infinite amount of energy to operate such came by selves,with no purpose. :ask:


Yes. Demonstrate otherwise, if you can. And "demonstrate" doesn't mean quoting scientifically unsupported bullshit from the Koran or other holy scripture. Ready? Go.
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Re: Advice for Believers

#159  Postby The_Metatron » Feb 06, 2017 8:39 pm

Dark energy wrote:
solazy wrote:Does any theist know why God created so many galaxies if all His people are here on earth.

https://phys.org/news/2017-01-universe- ... axies.html

Wasteful, but clearly not lazy like me.

God never said all his creations are here,i dont know where you got that info from,in fact,he might have created more/less advanced civilizations and didnt tell us about.so,do you think these trillion galaxies that seem to need almost an infinite amount of energy to operate such came by selves,with no purpose. :ask:

Tell us, from where do you know what your god said?

Now, if your god never said anything about these other civilizations, who the fuck are you to make shit up that your god may or may not have done?
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Re: Advice for Believers

#160  Postby mindhack » Feb 06, 2017 9:50 pm

Dark energy wrote:I have to admit that it is difficult for me to debate with the likes of CALI because he looks more acknowledgeable than me in these matters.we are on different wavelenghts.
i am after just a wanna-be scientist,theist who just ended up in this forum accidentally .

So you haven't very thoroughly thought your beliefs through. No worries, why not start here and now by addressing Cali's post?
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