Advice for Believers

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Re: Advice for Believers

#41  Postby DanDare » May 23, 2011 9:38 am

THWOTH wrote:You really shouldn't lump all crackpots together like that.

I saw what you did there.
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Re: Advice for Believers

#42  Postby lobawad » Jul 18, 2011 9:56 pm

My advice for Believers would be to immediately make clear your disassociation from any the world's churches, in order to make clear that the deity in which you believe is not indistinguishable, and therefore reasonably identical to, some social construct complete with hierarchies of power.
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Re: Advice for Believers

#43  Postby rodcarty » Aug 30, 2011 10:06 pm

Mick wrote:It's odd that the OP is directed toward theists.


It makes no sense to me that you find this odd. It's a post titled "Advice for Believers", so it's obvious it's going to be directed at theists. It's in a topic called Theism as well.
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Re: Advice for Believers

#44  Postby Nicko » Feb 13, 2012 1:32 pm

I suppose that my advice would be to note the name of the website.

Rational Skepticism.

Rational as in if you express a opinion, it will be assumed that you have reasons for holding that opinion and are prepared to supply them.

Skeptical as in claims will not be accepted just on someone's say so.

This does not just hold for the topic of religion, but for any topic discussed. There is more than enough space on this forum for any theist to be a prolific poster without once putting their beliefs in the line of fire. No one will force you to discuss religion if you don't want to. If you choose to, however, be aware that religious questions are treated like any other area of human endeavor. If you make a claim you will be asked to back it up. It cut both ways, of course, so feel free to ask the same of anyone.

People are not being "rude" when they ask you why you hold a certain opinion, nor when they reject an opinion presented without reasons, they are merely being rationally skeptical.

Just like it says on the box.

Oh, and just remember, this may be the first time you've conversed with a pack of godless heathens; this is not the first time we've conversed with a believer. Pretty much every "proof" of God ever invented has been discussed already and found to be invalid, unsound or both. Don't trot out the Kalam Cosmological Argument or the Ontological Argument and expect people to be impressed.

The reverse will probably be the case.

Oh, and learn what plagarism is and don't do it.
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Re: Advice for Believers

#45  Postby jerome » Feb 15, 2012 2:10 pm

Nicko wrote:

Oh, and just remember, this may be the first time you've conversed with a pack of godless heathens; this is not the first time we've conversed with a believer. Pretty much every "proof" of God ever invented has been discussed already and found to be invalid, unsound or both. Don't trot out the Kalam Cosmological Argument or the Ontological Argument and expect people to be impressed.
.


Good advice Nicko :cheers:

However I'm not sure that most British atheists would know the kalam cosmological or the ontological, or indeed the teleological argument for God and Paley's Watchmaker analogy, if it bit them on the arse. This is by no means a criticism of the atheists -- it's just that where I live at least Atheism is a pretty much automatic default, and any kind of religious faith is exceptional. I would imagine very few of my atheist mates have ever had occasion to, or desire to, deeply question the Aquinan proofs, or met any one who would have argued them against them, or indeed ever heard of them. They are highly educated clever and sociable people -- they just don't deal with theistic proofs much!

Informed atheists gather on sites like this: but the average unbeliever in the UK probably does not know said arguments, or their rebuttals, though they can wiki them quickly enough if they have a desire to, unlike my youth when only the fact I studied Philosophy of Religion meant I would have even understood what you are on about here!

I'm always up for a critical discussion or even a formal debate on some aspect of my religious beliefs btw, if you ever have the time. :cheers:

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Re: Advice for Believers

#46  Postby rainbow » Feb 15, 2012 2:22 pm

Nicko wrote:Rational as in if you express a opinion, it will be assumed that you have reasons for holding that opinion and are prepared to supply them.

Can't we just assume things and not supply a reason?
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Re: Advice for Believers

#47  Postby chairman bill » Feb 15, 2012 2:27 pm

rainbow wrote:Can't we just assume things and not supply a reason?


plenty of our resident theists do just that anyway
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Re: Advice for Believers

#48  Postby rainbow » Feb 15, 2012 2:30 pm

chairman bill wrote:
rainbow wrote:Can't we just assume things and not supply a reason?


plenty of our resident theists do just that anyway


Why do you think that?
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Re: Advice for Believers

#49  Postby Nicko » Feb 15, 2012 2:31 pm

chairman bill wrote:
rainbow wrote:Can't we just assume things and not supply a reason?


plenty of our resident theists do just that anyway


My point is, they get called on it. And seem surprised when it happens.
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Re: Advice for Believers

#50  Postby rainbow » Feb 15, 2012 2:34 pm

Nicko wrote:
chairman bill wrote:
rainbow wrote:Can't we just assume things and not supply a reason?


plenty of our resident theists do just that anyway


My point is, they get called on it. And seem surprised when it happens.


Can't they just ignore the question?
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Re: Advice for Believers

#51  Postby Spearthrower » Feb 15, 2012 2:41 pm

rainbow wrote:
Nicko wrote:
chairman bill wrote:
rainbow wrote:Can't we just assume things and not supply a reason?


plenty of our resident theists do just that anyway


My point is, they get called on it. And seem surprised when it happens.


Can't they just ignore the question?



Why don't you write some advice on how to post like Rainbow?

Oh, that would present some problems, wouldn't it?
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Re: Advice for Believers

#52  Postby trevp » Feb 15, 2012 2:51 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
rainbow wrote:
Nicko wrote:
chairman bill wrote:

plenty of our resident theists do just that anyway


My point is, they get called on it. And seem surprised when it happens.


Can't they just ignore the question?



Why don't you write some advice on how to post like Rainbow?

Oh, that would present some problems, wouldn't it?


Or would it?

(PS - how am I doing Rainbow?)
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Re: Advice for Believers

#53  Postby hackenslash » Feb 15, 2012 3:20 pm

jerome wrote:
Nicko wrote:

Oh, and just remember, this may be the first time you've conversed with a pack of godless heathens; this is not the first time we've conversed with a believer. Pretty much every "proof" of God ever invented has been discussed already and found to be invalid, unsound or both. Don't trot out the Kalam Cosmological Argument or the Ontological Argument and expect people to be impressed.
.


Good advice Nicko :cheers:

However I'm not sure that most British atheists would know the kalam cosmological or the ontological, or indeed the teleological argument for God and Paley's Watchmaker analogy, if it bit them on the arse. This is by no means a criticism of the atheists -- it's just that where I live at least Atheism is a pretty much automatic default, and any kind of religious faith is exceptional. I would imagine very few of my atheist mates have ever had occasion to, or desire to, deeply question the Aquinan proofs, or met any one who would have argued them against them, or indeed ever heard of them. They are highly educated clever and sociable people -- they just don't deal with theistic proofs much!

Informed atheists gather on sites like this: but the average unbeliever in the UK probably does not know said arguments, or their rebuttals, though they can wiki them quickly enough if they have a desire to, unlike my youth when only the fact I studied Philosophy of Religion meant I would have even understood what you are on about here!

I'm always up for a critical discussion or even a formal debate on some aspect of my religious beliefs btw, if you ever have the time. :cheers:

j x


:clap:

Exactly. Indeed, I have quite a few of what many interlocutors hereabouts would call 'militant atheists' among my friends, and this is true of even them. Most of them have some familiarity with these concepts only because they've come up in discussion with me. Indeed, most wouldn't be able to correctly identify a logical fallacy, although to be fair they would usually be able to spot a fallacy when one is committed. They aren't complete numpties, after all.
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Re: Advice for Believers

#54  Postby Lion IRC » Feb 16, 2012 12:31 am

jerome wrote:
Nicko wrote:

Oh, and just remember, this may be the first time you've conversed with a pack of godless heathens; this is not the first time we've conversed with a believer. Pretty much every "proof" of God ever invented has been discussed already and found to be invalid, unsound or both. Don't trot out the Kalam Cosmological Argument or the Ontological Argument and expect people to be impressed.
.


Good advice Nicko :cheers:

However I'm not sure that most British atheists would know the kalam cosmological or the ontological, or indeed the teleological argument for God and Paley's Watchmaker analogy, if it bit them on the arse. This is by no means a criticism of the atheists -- it's just that where I live at least Atheism is a pretty much automatic default, and any kind of religious faith is exceptional. I would imagine very few of my atheist mates have ever had occasion to, or desire to, deeply question the Aquinan proofs, or met any one who would have argued them against them, or indeed ever heard of them. They are highly educated clever and sociable people -- they just don't deal with theistic proofs much!

Informed atheists gather on sites like this: but the average unbeliever in the UK probably does not know said arguments, or their rebuttals, though they can wiki them quickly enough if they have a desire to, unlike my youth when only the fact I studied Philosophy of Religion meant I would have even understood what you are on about here!

I'm always up for a critical discussion or even a formal debate on some aspect of my religious beliefs btw, if you ever have the time. :cheers:

j x


No. It's not good advice because it's based on something which is ITSELF an unsubstantiated claim - an opinion.
"Pretty much every "proof" of God ever invented has been discussed already and found to be invalid, unsound or both."

Beware of claims which rest on the logical fallacy...everybody knows... everyone agrees with...we all blah blah blah...

I am as entitled to be skeptical of atheism - the no god hypothesis - as I am to be skeptical of any other unsupported theory.
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Re: Advice for Believers

#55  Postby Fallible » Feb 16, 2012 12:36 am

Blah hypothesis, blah theory...just more cack-handed nonsense. :sigh:
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Re: Advice for Believers

#56  Postby Lion IRC » Feb 16, 2012 12:37 am

Fallible wrote:Blah hypothesis, blah theory...just more cack-handed nonsense. :sigh:


EXACTLY!
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Re: Advice for Believers

#57  Postby Nicko » Feb 16, 2012 1:39 am

Lion IRC wrote:No. It's not good advice because it's based on something which is ITSELF an unsubstantiated claim - an opinion.
"Pretty much every "proof" of God ever invented has been discussed already and found to be invalid, unsound or both."

Beware of claims which rest on the logical fallacy...everybody knows... everyone agrees with...we all blah blah blah...


My claim does not rest on a fallacy. Largely because it is not a claim at all, it is an observation supported by the entirety of the "Belief & Unbelief" section of this site.

If you have some argument for the existence of God that has not been examined on this site, why are you complaining here instead of off proving God's existence in a thread devoted to it? If you can provide an unrefutable proof of God, I will apologise to you unreservedly. Regardless, the non-existence of an unrefuted proof of God on this site is currently a fact.

My actual point was that it is a good idea to examine whether a subject has already been discussed, and engaging with the ongoing discussion, before raising it as if it had not been discussed and you are privy to some kind of revolutionary argument that we should all be amazed by. Such a strategy would result in many people here recieving responses that they would perceive to be more "polite", rather than, "Oh no, do we have to refute this nonsense again?".

For instance, if there is an active thread discussing the validity of the Kalam Cosmological Argument, use that thread to discuss the Kalam. If you think the objections to it are invalid, give your reasons.

Don't inject it into another thread as if no objections existed to it, as this may lead people to develop negative opinions about your honesty or intelligence.
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Re: Advice for Believers

#58  Postby Lion IRC » Feb 16, 2012 4:29 am

You didnt say...every proof of God ever invented has been "examined" on this site.

You said every single one had been "found to be invalid, unsound or both."

And you werent speaking on your own behalf either were you.
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Re: Advice for Believers

#59  Postby Lion IRC » Feb 16, 2012 4:32 am

It's not a claim, it's an observation.

If only it was THAT simple.
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Re: Advice for Believers

#60  Postby rainbow » Feb 16, 2012 6:30 am

trevp wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
rainbow wrote:
Nicko wrote:

My point is, they get called on it. And seem surprised when it happens.


Can't they just ignore the question?



Why don't you write some advice on how to post like Rainbow?

Oh, that would present some problems, wouldn't it?


Or would it?


I can't say. I usually ignore Spear, so I'm not inclined to reply.

(PS - how am I doing Rainbow?)

Really good.
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