Aussie Rugby bans player over homophobic remarks

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Re: Aussie Rugby bans player over homophobic remarks

#41  Postby tuco » Jun 21, 2019 1:32 pm

"Drunks, homosexuals, adulterers, liars, fornicators, thieves, atheists and idolators - Hell awaits you."


Sounds peaceful, not involving violence or war, to me. But I guess it does not matter what he actually said as long as it can be labeled as "homophobic" which then is not peaceful by default.

I guess Theives, hell awaits you! is not peaceful either or? How about Theives, prison awaits you!, peaceful or not?
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Re: Aussie Rugby bans player over homophobic remarks

#42  Postby Spearthrower » Jun 21, 2019 1:53 pm

OlivierK wrote:On his gofundme page, Folau seeks support from those who "believe in the right of employees to peacefully express their religious beliefs without fear of termination or punishment".



Someone needs to ask him whether he would support a religious believer's peaceful expression of him being some bigoted racial stereotype... but it's just my religious belief!
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Re: Aussie Rugby bans player over homophobic remarks

#43  Postby SafeAsMilk » Jun 21, 2019 5:15 pm

tuco wrote:
"Drunks, homosexuals, adulterers, liars, fornicators, thieves, atheists and idolators - Hell awaits you."


Sounds peaceful, not involving violence or war, to me. But I guess it does not matter what he actually said as long as it can be labeled as "homophobic" which then is not peaceful by default.

I guess Theives, hell awaits you! is not peaceful either or? How about Theives, prison awaits you!, peaceful or not?

Prison is doubtless terrible, but what is that compared to eternal hellfire? With the understanding, of course, that the person declaring eternal violence on somebody thinks it exists. I'd say that declaring someone should be shot in the head has at least some connection to violence, wouldn't you?

The more relevant part, I think, is where you don't see the problem of associating thievery, an actual crime, with homosexuality. I'm not sure how you define homophobic, but associating homosexuals with criminals seems like a pretty straightforward example to me.
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Re: Aussie Rugby bans player over homophobic remarks

#44  Postby tuco » Jun 21, 2019 6:07 pm

Imaginary eternal violence. To me, it's like saying I dunno ... Sauron shall curse you! .. lol cool story bro gl with that.

I was not analyzing the quote, just using it. That in someones mind the two, and others mentioned, are crimes, sins respectively, was not subject of my inquiry nor interest. This statement was:

On his gofundme page, Folau seeks support from those who "believe in the right of employees to peacefully express their religious beliefs without fear of termination or punishment".

So that wouldn't be him, then. Homophobia isn't peaceful, it's a direct cause of discrimination and higher levels of violent victimisation.


Yeah sure, homophobia could be a direct cause ... but does not necessarily have to be. Someone can be homophobic, yet peaceful, non-violent.

If the quote was, for example:

"Drunks, homosexuals, adulterers, liars, fornicators, thieves, atheists and idolators - beheading awaits you."


well, I would have no choice but to agree it's a call for violence, its not peaceful. Hell cannot be violent as it does not exist. Prison does, but its not what Mr Folau called for.
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Re: Aussie Rugby bans player over homophobic remarks

#45  Postby SafeAsMilk » Jun 21, 2019 8:50 pm

tuco wrote:Imaginary eternal violence. To me, it's like saying I dunno ... Sauron shall curse you! .. lol cool story bro gl with that.

What difference does it make if what the person wants to happen is real or not? They clearly think it is. Of course, nobody thinks Sauron's going to hurt anybody, because nobody thinks he exists. Lots of people that think eternal, unbearable torment exists, though, and they like to wish it on people they think deserve it. In this case, this guy thinks people should suffer eternally because of their sexual orientation. Trying to claim that isn't an expression of violence would be absurd.

I was not analyzing the quote, just using it. That in someones mind the two, and others mentioned, are crimes, sins respectively, was not subject of my inquiry nor interest.

This statement was:

On his gofundme page, Folau seeks support from those who "believe in the right of employees to peacefully express their religious beliefs without fear of termination or punishment".

So that wouldn't be him, then. Homophobia isn't peaceful, it's a direct cause of discrimination and higher levels of violent victimisation.


Yeah sure, homophobia could be a direct cause ... but does not necessarily have to be. Someone can be homophobic, yet peaceful, non-violent.

Even if so, in this case it isn't. It's putting homosexuals on the level of criminals, and wishing they'd suffer forever. That isn't a peaceful sentiment by any stretch of the imagination.

If the quote was, for example:

"Drunks, homosexuals, adulterers, liars, fornicators, thieves, atheists and idolators - beheading awaits you."


well, I would have no choice but to agree it's a call for violence, its not peaceful. Hell cannot be violent as it does not exist. Prison does, but its not what Mr Folau called for.

I see that you're stuck on the irrelevant fact of hell not existing. If you believe hell exists, and you wish it on someone, you're making an expression of violence towards them because you think the violence is real. If a pedophile is talking to a cop online that they think is a child, and they tell the child to come over so they can have sex with them, has the pedophile somehow not expressed the intent to have sex with a child because the person they're talking to is a cop? What you're saying doesn't make any sense.
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Re: Aussie Rugby bans player over homophobic remarks

#46  Postby tuco » Jun 21, 2019 9:04 pm

Who decides if it's peaceful or not? That is the only thing I care about.
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Re: Aussie Rugby bans player over homophobic remarks

#47  Postby laklak » Jun 21, 2019 9:05 pm

Nothin' more peaceful than a dead man.
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Re: Aussie Rugby bans player over homophobic remarks

#48  Postby tuco » Jun 21, 2019 9:07 pm

lol

these exchanges .. I dunno .. let's go bowling?
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Re: Aussie Rugby bans player over homophobic remarks

#49  Postby OlivierK » Jun 21, 2019 9:59 pm

tuco wrote:Who decides if it's peaceful or not? That is the only thing I care about.

LGBTQ people are overrepresented as victims of real, not imaginary, violence. Folau's attitudes contribute to that. This bigotry has real, non-peaceful, consequences.

But all that aside, he's done this before, and during his subsequent contract renegotiation, signed a contract not to do it again. Then he did it again. He's breached his contract, and the people he had a contract with have cancelled the contract on that basis. Morality doesn't even need to come into it, although if its brought in, he's fucked there, too.
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Re: Aussie Rugby bans player over homophobic remarks

#50  Postby tuco » Jun 21, 2019 10:27 pm

So if I understand it correctly, that is what I said in my initial post. It does not matter what he actually said as long as it's homophobic because any homophobic statement is not peaceful by default as it necessarily contributes to violence against LGBTQ?

btw I do not care about his history. I was curious about the logic behind:

OlivierK wrote:On his gofundme page, Folau seeks support from those who "believe in the right of employees to peacefully express their religious beliefs without fear of termination or punishment".

So that wouldn't be him, then. Homophobia isn't peaceful, it's a direct cause of discrimination and higher levels of violent victimisation.
Folau knows that his words have effects - if he didn't think that, he wouldn't be evangelising. But while he may be aiming for LGBT folk to med ways that don't need mending, he totally neglects the effects that words like his have historically had in emboldening bigots to believe that God is on their side.

He wouldn't keep his job if he used his social media to support bigots like the KKK, and frankly his judgemental fundamentalist sect is little better. High time shit like his was treated with the contempt it deserves.


My bold.

not peacefully expressing his opinions/feelings.

PS note that I did not bother to question anything else, for example: Folau knows that his words have effects, which surely is questionable, as I am merely curious about him not expressing his religious believes peacefully.
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Re: Aussie Rugby bans player over homophobic remarks

#51  Postby SafeAsMilk » Jun 21, 2019 10:57 pm

Look, I just want to peacefully shout "Fire!" inside a packed theater. Why are you oppressing me?
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Re: Aussie Rugby bans player over homophobic remarks

#52  Postby tuco » Jun 22, 2019 12:00 am

/looks

:)

Well, I am gonna wait for OlivierK to confirm or clarify my understanding. If my understanding is correct and any homophobic (as in: having or showing a dislike of or prejudice against homosexual people) statement is not peaceful by default and necessarily contributes to violence against LGBTQ, then the same principle or logic could be applied to statements about other groups and even religious groups. And despite religious groups are not protected on this site, iirc, I have my doubts this site wants to promote violence against religious groups.

I mean someone from New Zealand, for example, could be reading this site and then do something horrible after reading this (glassing). So I am genuinely curious about how it is.

How about this, made up for the sake of argument, homophobic statement, for example: I dislike homosexuals., peaceful or not?
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Re: Aussie Rugby bans player over homophobic remarks

#53  Postby Hermit » Jun 22, 2019 12:04 am

tuco wrote:
"Drunks, homosexuals, adulterers, liars, fornicators, thieves, atheists and idolators - Hell awaits you."


Sounds peaceful, not involving violence or war, to me. But I guess it does not matter what he actually said as long as it can be labeled as "homophobic" which then is not peaceful by default.

The issue is not about peacefulness, or whatever you're prattling on about. It's a contractual matter. To repeat: In August 2014 Rugby Australia has formulated an inclusionist policy and published it in a document titled Inclusion Policy. In part it reads:
Rugby AU recognises that both intentional and unintentional homophobic behaviour exist within society in Australia, and that this can have adverse and potentially significant consequences for some individuals and our game.

Sometimes these consequences mean that individuals who want to play Rugby or be involved in our game, feel excluded and as a result cease their involvement or even hide their sexuality. In some cases, individuals who continue playing may be subjected to homophobic language or actions and are needlessly and wrongfully subjected to discrimination, thus reducing their enjoyment of Rugby. These outcomes are unacceptable and unwelcome in our game.

The policy applies to all members and employees of Rugby Australia, of which Israel Folau is one. He has made a post on Facebook, saying that homosexuals, among others, will go to hell unless they repent. Hardly an inclusive attitude, is it? He is of course entitled to believe whatever crap he wants, but he is a representative of RA, and the post was public. His entire account is public, and has attracted over 137,000 followers. The objectionable post attracted 9,528 likes in five hours. On his Facebook page it says: About - Rugby Player for NSW Waratahs & Australia. He is a representative of an organisation purporting to have and implement an inclusive policy, and he is breaking it in public for the second time.

Of course he is free to voice his opinions, whatever they are, but he, like everybody else, cannot escape the fact that expressing one's opinions have consequences. The consequence of publicly opposing his employer's policy Israel Folau has had the contract he was employed under terminated.
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Re: Aussie Rugby bans player over homophobic remarks

#54  Postby tuco » Jun 22, 2019 12:16 am

Do you agree or disagree that If Mr Folau seeks support from those who "believe in the right of employees to peacefully express their religious beliefs without fear of termination or punishment" he seeks support for himself?

I just do not understand how the statement in question can be interpreted as violent, non-peaceful. That is all.

I am not all that interested in his record, contract or inclusion policy of Australian rugby. I've read this thread, concluded all was said already, those who agree with him being fired will agree no matter what and the other way around, as usual, there is no truth to be found, as usual, so I can move onto something else.

I do not understand how he is not expressing his views peacefully. True story.

---
edit: or whatever you're prattling on about. .. that is great, really great and peaceful. Thank you. I explained myself clearly several times. I asked direct simple and honest questions. If you do not know what I am prattling about read post #50.

So that wouldn't be him ... is this some kind of English expression I don't understand? Is this some kind of prattling I dont understand?

What the fuck is wrong with you people, seriously?
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Re: Aussie Rugby bans player over homophobic remarks

#55  Postby Hermit » Jun 22, 2019 1:27 am

tuco wrote:Do you agree or disagree that If Mr Folau seeks support from those who "believe in the right of employees to peacefully express their religious beliefs without fear of termination or punishment" he seeks support for himself?

Yes, Israel Folau has the right to seek support from those who believe in the right of employees to peacefully express their religious beliefs without fear of termination or punishment. Did I miss the bit where anyone said otherwise? I do have a tendency to start skimming posts that begin with what I regard as irrelevant or garbage, so this is quite possible.

tuco wrote:I just do not understand how the statement in question can be interpreted as violent, non-peaceful.

Maybe by realising that violence and non-peacefulness need not be physical? "Warning ... homosexuals ... hell awaits you", peacefully expressed, can have violent consequences in more ways than one.

None of that is the immediate issue about Folau's sacking. The immediate issue is that he broke the terms of the contract between himself and his employer by publicly and repeatedly opposing his employer's inclusivity policy. From an article published by The Sydney Morning Herald in April:

It is a nightmare scenario for RA chief executive Raelene Castle, who said Folau also flouted various verbal and written agreements, and even a handshake agreement, after his first post condemning gay people to hell a year ago, that he would not cross the line into disrespectful language again.

"It's very disappointing from my perspective because I had a very direct and specific conversation with him about the expectations that I had," Castle said.

"He accepted that conversation, he said that he understood that conversation, he shook my hand at the end of that conversation, said that he was very clear of it, and yet he has gone off and done what he's done."

Folau remains stood down by RA over his religiously-motivated posts last week proclaiming hell awaits "drunks, homosexuals, adulterers, liars, fornicators, thieves, atheists and idolaters".

Castle said Folau had been unapologetic about the posts and his stance when she met with him last Friday. That came after he had been warned, formally and repeatedly about social media expectations after he made similar posts about a year ago.

"It was made clear to Israel in writing and verbally when I met with him last year that any social media posts or commentary that in any way were disrespectful to people because of their sexuality would result in disciplinary action," Castle said. "Despite this Israel has chosen to ignore this warning."

Castle revealed there were no extra clauses added to the four-year contract he signed earlier this year in the wake of a similar controversy a year ago.

"Not within the contract, but there was a number of meetings, documented meetings, that were put ... verbally and in writing to Israel about our expectations," she said.

When asked whether the agreed to or accepted the expectations, she said: "Yes he agreed to them".

Castle also said the breach notice related to a number of points in the code of conduct, which contains 10 clauses to which players must adhere. They include using social media appropriately, treating everyone equally and fairly regardless of sexuality among other things...
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Re: Aussie Rugby bans player over homophobic remarks

#56  Postby I'm With Stupid » Jun 22, 2019 1:40 am

$4m a year, but apparently not willing to use any of his own money to fight the lawsuit. Really showing his conviction there. Although if it enables a greater number of fundamentalist bigots to throw their money down the toilet, so be it.
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Re: Aussie Rugby bans player over homophobic remarks

#57  Postby Fenrir » Jun 22, 2019 2:03 am

There is a need to view this within the wider Australian political context.

Same sex marriage was recently legalised after a nasty, underhanded and drawn out whinge-fest by the usual suspects.

After the populace repudiated the whiners at the heavily biased, expensive and unnecessary voluntary non-binding postal survey and laws were changed (despite several conservative pollies refusing to take part, including our PM) there was immediate talk about a pressing need to change our anti-discrimination laws to include a provision for sanctioned discrimination by religious snowflakes to make them feel better, under the all encompassing guise of "religious freedom".

To this end there was an investigation, the results of which are super secret and not to be seen by the great unwashed (which to me says their own investigation didn't support their desires) and we await any resulting legislation.

The Folau thing has to be seen within this context. It's a dogwhistle to the existing dogwhistle whine about how giving some people equal rights somehow means the rights of others are somehow diminished something something FREEDOM!!!
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Re: Aussie Rugby bans player over homophobic remarks

#58  Postby SafeAsMilk » Jun 22, 2019 2:31 am

tuco wrote:
OlivierK wrote:On his gofundme page, Folau seeks support from those who "believe in the right of employees to peacefully express their religious beliefs without fear of termination or punishment".

So that wouldn't be him, then. Homophobia isn't peaceful, it's a direct cause of discrimination and higher levels of violent victimisation.
Folau knows that his words have effects - if he didn't think that, he wouldn't be evangelising. But while he may be aiming for LGBT folk to med ways that don't need mending, he totally neglects the effects that words like his have historically had in emboldening bigots to believe that God is on their side.

He wouldn't keep his job if he used his social media to support bigots like the KKK, and frankly his judgemental fundamentalist sect is little better. High time shit like his was treated with the contempt it deserves.


My bold.

not peacefully expressing his opinions/feelings.

Do you think anything short of actual physical violence is peacefully expressing one's opinions/feelings?
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Re: Aussie Rugby bans player over homophobic remarks

#59  Postby Hermit » Jun 22, 2019 2:35 am

I'm With Stupid wrote:$4m a year, but apparently not willing to use any of his own money to fight the lawsuit. Really showing his conviction there. Although if it enables a greater number of fundamentalist bigots to throw their money down the toilet, so be it.

It's $1m a year, including sponsorship deals, spread over four years. The contract was terminated five months after it was signed, so Folau would have been paid about $417,000 of it, with no further payments forthcoming.
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Re: Aussie Rugby bans player over homophobic remarks

#60  Postby tuco » Jun 22, 2019 5:16 am

So who do we have here? You, you and now also you.
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