Common apologetic claim found in newspaper

termina · #1 by **termina** » Apr 20, 2014 1:59 pm

Hello!

In a French newspapers, I spotted an article about how judeo-christian religions have been necessary to make moral codes (elaborating on David Cameron's statement) and that without them, we wouldnt have pivotal concepts like democracy, equal freedom of humans, human dignity, ect...

http://www.atlantico.fr/decryptage/cet- ... l?page=0,0
About the latter concept, one of the reporters even claims:

The concept of human dignity could appear only because Christianity developped the notion of the individual, by analogy with the three individuals of Trinity, and because this individual is created by God in His image.
In rejecting Christianism, one still desires human dignity, however one doesn't know what its basis is anymore; and the latter being not given from the outside anymore, in a trascendental way; it's Man himself that is judge of it, hence the
door is left open to arbitrariness and all the excesses that show up nowadays.

Animavore · #2 by **Animavore** » Apr 20, 2014 2:05 pm

Isn't this a classic case of mistaking correlation with causation?

Anyway, I thought the idea of democracy pre-dated Christianity? And isn't the modern form of democracy just a push away from theocratic monarchy?

Calilasseia · #3 by **Calilasseia** » Apr 20, 2014 2:07 pm

Oh wait, democracy was invented by Classical Greek civilisation. Around 500 years before Christianity appeared on the scene.

chairman bill · #4 by **chairman bill** » Apr 20, 2014 2:09 pm

Well the idea of the individual pre-dates Christianity & even Judaism. Democracy clearly has sod all to do with Christianity, and besides, it spent most of its history imposing theocratic control over people's lives. Any interest in democracy is a recent affectation, and something it would quickly lose if opportunity to impose orthopraxy & orthodoxy presented itself.

termina · #5 by **termina** » Apr 20, 2014 2:12 pm

What do yout think about the quote on human dignity?
Personnally it reeks of some kind of Divine Command theory. Allegedly just because one doesn't believe that man is created by a Supreme being in His image, one has no solid basis for accepting human dignity

Animavore · #6 by **Animavore** » Apr 20, 2014 2:13 pm

I don't see how any belief system which involves shared codes and morals can be said to be individualist.
Not that all Christians share the same codes and morals or even beliefs.

Mick · #7 by **Mick** » Apr 20, 2014 2:16 pm

I can't defend the idea of democracy per se being a Christian thang, but ideas concerning intrinsic human dignity and such anchor in the Abrahamic faith, at least here in the West. I've yet to see a better account of human rights.

Animavore · #8 by **Animavore** » Apr 20, 2014 2:17 pm

termina wrote:What do yout think about the quote on human dignity?
Personnally it reeks of some kind of Divine Command theory. Allegedly just because one doesn't believe that man is created by a Supreme being in His image, one has no solid basis for accepting human dignity

I think the concept of 'human dignity' is elitist nonsence. It sounds like a snobbish attempt to separate humans from other animals.
In my view respect is earned and not granted by virtue of species.

hackenslash · #9 by **hackenslash** » Apr 20, 2014 2:18 pm

Mick wrote:ideas concerning intrinsic human dignity and such take their anchor in the Abrahamic faith, at least here in the West. I've yet to see a better account of human rights.

Yes, because rules about how you should treat your slaves are absolutely intrinsic to any account of human rights.

Do me a fucking lemon.

Animavore · **#10** by **Animavore** » Apr 20, 2014 2:20 pm

Mick wrote:I can't defend the idea of democracy per se being a Christian thang, but ideas concerning intrinsic human dignity and such anchor in the Abrahamic faith, at least here in the West. I've yet to see a better account of human rights.

Says the guy who objects to human rights :doh:

Mick · **#11** by **Mick** » Apr 20, 2014 2:21 pm

Animavore wrote:
termina wrote:What do yout think about the quote on human dignity?
Personnally it reeks of some kind of Divine Command theory. Allegedly just because one doesn't believe that man is created by a Supreme being in His image, one has no solid basis for accepting human dignity

I think the concept of 'human dignity' is elitist nonsence. It sounds like a snobbish attempt to separate humans from other animals.
In my view respect is earned and not granted by virtue of species.

Heh.

I think it was rumracket who said that we are just bags of meat. From this, you can perhaps begin to see why some people are kinda scared of atheism, or at least the more honest and consistent sort.

chairman bill · **#12** by **chairman bill** » Apr 20, 2014 2:21 pm

Mick wrote:I can't defend the idea of democracy per se being a Christian thang, but ideas concerning intrinsic human dignity and such anchor in the Abrahamic faith, at least here in the West. I've yet to see a better account of human rights.

yes, because the biblical exhortations to slaughter unbelievers, or stone those who transgress idiotic moral precepts, is born out of respect for the intrinsic dignity of all people :puke:

Mick · **#13** by **Mick** » Apr 20, 2014 2:22 pm

Animavore wrote:
Mick wrote:I can't defend the idea of democracy per se being a Christian thang, but ideas concerning intrinsic human dignity and such anchor in the Abrahamic faith, at least here in the West. I've yet to see a better account of human rights.

Says the guy who objects to human rights

No, I uphold them. I object to atheistic conceptions of human rights.

chairman bill · **#14** by **chairman bill** » Apr 20, 2014 2:23 pm

Mick wrote:No, I uphold them. I object to atheistic conceptions of human rights.

You mean conceptions of human rights that are derived from reason rather than superstition

Animavore · **#15** by **Animavore** » Apr 20, 2014 2:24 pm

Mick wrote:
Animavore wrote:
termina wrote:What do yout think about the quote on human dignity?
Personnally it reeks of some kind of Divine Command theory. Allegedly just because one doesn't believe that man is created by a Supreme being in His image, one has no solid basis for accepting human dignity

I think the concept of 'human dignity' is elitist nonsence. It sounds like a snobbish attempt to separate humans from other animals.
In my view respect is earned and not granted by virtue of species.

Heh.

I think it was rumracket who said that we are just bags of meat. From this, you can perhaps begin to see why some people are kinda scared of atheism, or at least the more honest and consistent sort.

We are quite literally bags of meat. But I would never prefix that with just. 4 billion years of amazing, complex evolution is not to be sniffed at.

Mick · **#16** by **Mick** » Apr 20, 2014 2:24 pm

chairman bill wrote:
Mick wrote:I can't defend the idea of democracy per se being a Christian thang, but ideas concerning intrinsic human dignity and such anchor in the Abrahamic faith, at least here in the West. I've yet to see a better account of human rights.

yes, because the biblical exhortations to slaughter unbelievers, or stone those who transgress idiotic moral precepts, is born out of respect for the intrinsic dignity of all people

Say what you wish, but it is a matter of historical fact.

hackenslash · **#17** by **hackenslash** » Apr 20, 2014 2:24 pm

What are 'atheistic conceptions of human rights'? Are they the ones that don't include killing your children on the whim of a merely asserted entity? Or the ones that don't include forcing rape victims to marry their attackers?

Animavore · **#18** by **Animavore** » Apr 20, 2014 2:25 pm

Mick wrote:
Animavore wrote:
Mick wrote:I can't defend the idea of democracy per se being a Christian thang, but ideas concerning intrinsic human dignity and such anchor in the Abrahamic faith, at least here in the West. I've yet to see a better account of human rights.

Says the guy who objects to human rights

No, I uphold them. I object to atheistic conceptions of human rights.

Gays are human :doh:

Mick · **#19** by **Mick** » Apr 20, 2014 2:25 pm

chairman bill wrote:
Mick wrote:No, I uphold them. I object to atheistic conceptions of human rights.

You mean conceptions of human rights that are derived from reason rather than superstition

Let's hear these concepts, those from reason.

Calilasseia · **#20** by **Calilasseia** » Apr 20, 2014 2:25 pm

Mick wrote:
chairman bill wrote:
Mick wrote:I can't defend the idea of democracy per se being a Christian thang, but ideas concerning intrinsic human dignity and such anchor in the Abrahamic faith, at least here in the West. I've yet to see a better account of human rights.

yes, because the biblical exhortations to slaughter unbelievers, or stone those who transgress idiotic moral precepts, is born out of respect for the intrinsic dignity of all people

Say what you wish, but it is a matter of historical fact revisionist apologetic assertion.

Fixed it for you.

Common apologetic claim found in newspaper

Common apologetic claim found in newspaper

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