Do some people need god to be good?

the carrot of heaven, the stick of hell etc.

Christianity, Islam, Other Religions & Belief Systems.

Moderators: Blip, DarthHelmet86

Do some people need belief in God to be good?

Yes
4
19%
Probably
2
10%
No eye deer
0
No votes
Probably not
6
29%
No
8
38%
Half pound cheeseburger with salad and mayo
1
5%
 
Total votes : 21

Re: Do some people need god to be good?

#61  Postby archibald » Dec 02, 2016 9:12 pm

tuco wrote:Any of them are members here? ;)


At a quick glance, most of them seem to be women, so......that's gonna cut the odds.

My guess is that they might have gone there instead of going to male-infested online forums. :(
"It seems rather obvious that plants have free will. Don't know why that would be controversial."
(John Platko)
archibald
 
Posts: 8916
Male

Country: Northern Ireland
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Do some people need god to be good?

#62  Postby Fallible » Dec 02, 2016 10:41 pm

Bleh, Sunday gatherings? With people? Because we happen to not believe some of the same things? No thanks.
John Grant wrote:They say 'let go, let go, let go, you must learn to let go'.
If I hear that fucking phrase again, this baby's gonna blow
Into a million itsy bitsy tiny pieces, don't you know,
Just like my favourite scene in Scanners .
User avatar
Fallible
RS Donator
 
Name: Alice Pooper
Posts: 43729
Age: 44
Female

Country: Engerland na na
Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: Do some people need god to be good?

#63  Postby PensivePenny » Dec 06, 2016 11:55 pm

I don't believe there is 'good' or 'bad'. Things just 'are'. Whether they are good or bad is wholly dependent on the perspective.
When the insanity overshadows, the sanity. The sane take their leave. Last word is up for grabs. Enjoy :cheers:

Peace all
PensivePenny
 
Name: Penny
Posts: 1384
Age: 54
Female

Country: US
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Do some people need god to be good?

#64  Postby archibald » Dec 07, 2016 10:07 pm

PensivePenny wrote:I don't believe there is 'good' or 'bad'. Things just 'are'. Whether they are good or bad is wholly dependent on the perspective.


You can take that to the bank. It's solid gold. I'm not being cynical. Or stoical even, though I do like their idea that it's not what happens (to you) that matters, but how you respond to it. Which is sort of related to what you said.
"It seems rather obvious that plants have free will. Don't know why that would be controversial."
(John Platko)
archibald
 
Posts: 8916
Male

Country: Northern Ireland
Print view this post

Re: Do some people need god to be good?

#65  Postby PensivePenny » Dec 08, 2016 1:53 am

archibald wrote:
PensivePenny wrote:I don't believe there is 'good' or 'bad'. Things just 'are'. Whether they are good or bad is wholly dependent on the perspective.


You can take that to the bank. It's solid gold. I'm not being cynical. Or stoical even, though I do like their idea that it's not what happens (to you) that matters, but how you respond to it. Which is sort of related to what you said.


Did I come off as cynical? Gee, I hope not. I mean, I am cynical, but don't mean to be when I say there is no good or bad. For myself, it isn't stoicism either. I just meant there is not good or bad in the no objective morality sense. Asking "do some people need god to be good?" is to ask the reader to accept the premise that 'good' exists. I don't accept the premise, so I answered in the negative.
When the insanity overshadows, the sanity. The sane take their leave. Last word is up for grabs. Enjoy :cheers:

Peace all
PensivePenny
 
Name: Penny
Posts: 1384
Age: 54
Female

Country: US
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Do some people need god to be good?

#66  Postby archibald » Dec 08, 2016 10:37 am

PensivePenny wrote:
archibald wrote:
PensivePenny wrote:I don't believe there is 'good' or 'bad'. Things just 'are'. Whether they are good or bad is wholly dependent on the perspective.


You can take that to the bank. It's solid gold. I'm not being cynical. Or stoical even, though I do like their idea that it's not what happens (to you) that matters, but how you respond to it. Which is sort of related to what you said.


Did I come off as cynical? Gee, I hope not. I mean, I am cynical, but don't mean to be when I say there is no good or bad. For myself, it isn't stoicism either. I just meant there is not good or bad in the no objective morality sense. Asking "do some people need god to be good?" is to ask the reader to accept the premise that 'good' exists. I don't accept the premise, so I answered in the negative.


No I only meant that I wasn't being cynical. I think your statement is as completely true as almost anything else I can think of.

Ok perhaps I was being a teeny-weeny bit cynical, but it's only because, while I agree with you, I perhaps think it as a sort of obvious thing which doesn't seem to lead anywhere, of itself.

So, I suppose, to try to explore the idea....what do you think might happen, in society, if more and more people realised the implications of this moral relativism (if that's what it is) and gave up on the notion that they could or should ever actually be or do good?
"It seems rather obvious that plants have free will. Don't know why that would be controversial."
(John Platko)
archibald
 
Posts: 8916
Male

Country: Northern Ireland
Print view this post

Re: Do some people need god to be good?

#67  Postby Cito di Pense » Dec 08, 2016 5:09 pm

archibald wrote:So, I suppose, to try to explore the idea....what do you think might happen, in society, if more and more people realised the implications of this moral relativism (if that's what it is) and gave up on the notion that they could or should ever actually be or do good?


It would be like the late 1960's again. You can see where that led.

You need to get the fortune cookie that reads, "Stop searching; happiness is just beside you."
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
User avatar
Cito di Pense
 
Name: Ivar Poäng
Posts: 24137
Age: 6
Male

Country: The Heartland
Mongolia (mn)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Do some people need god to be good?

#68  Postby PensivePenny » Dec 08, 2016 5:53 pm

archibald wrote:
So, I suppose, to try to explore the idea....what do you think might happen, in society, if more and more people realised the implications of this moral relativism (if that's what it is) and gave up on the notion that they could or should ever actually be or do good?


In my opinion? Personally? First, lets reject a discussion about "moral relativism" especially since by your asking "if that's what it is" would require us to agree on a definition of it. We saw where this led in another thread...

Good DOES exist when it's [i]relative [/i]to something. It's the same as saying, "every belief has at least one premise that MUST first be accepted." Too many people want to state that in a vacuum, good is self-evident. Look at how people say it's wrong to kill as if that most certainly MUST be true. It is SO easy to miss that we are implicitly accepting some premise as true without even knowing it. If we actually realized we were assuming the truth of some premise unquestioningly, we'd probably be a little more responsible AND understanding AND tolerant of others. Would THAT be a good thing? Meh, it would be to me for humanist reasons, but YMMV.

Just because we acknowledge the source of our "morality", our judgement of what is right and wrong, doesn't make it less real. It just makes us put it into perspective. We will still have our moral feelings inside, even a code we could write down manifesto style if we wish, but we don't need to judge others by it and wouldn't if we recognized how flawed it would be. We would still write laws that stem from our morality, codified, agreed upon. We would also recognize that people do "bad" things relative to that codified law. They also would experience consequences.

It's just that we wouldn't rely upon a common code of conduct in order to make us a cohesive community. We already of subsets within subsets of groups in our society all having their own codes of conduct, all elevating it to divine status, in close proximity to one another. So, we don't rely on common codes anymore for cohesion. Perhaps they have served their evolutionary purpose, cohesion that divides when the population gets too big. And now, technology, reason and higher intellect makes it possible to dispose of our security blanket.
When the insanity overshadows, the sanity. The sane take their leave. Last word is up for grabs. Enjoy :cheers:

Peace all
PensivePenny
 
Name: Penny
Posts: 1384
Age: 54
Female

Country: US
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Do some people need god to be good?

#69  Postby PensivePenny » Dec 08, 2016 6:06 pm

@Arch, another thing... on the topic of moral codes... an interesting observation I recently made...

I long resisted watching a series that was widely received and critically acclaimed as the premise just sounded to bizarre to expect the suspension of disbelief possible.

"Dexter." It's on Netflix. I recently started watching it and it is remarkable in this respect:
If you aren't familiar with the show, the protagonist is a Serial killer. More significantly, if you watch the show you will find yourself rooting for him, even identifying with him (no I'm not a sociopath). He's a good man who experienced the traumatic murder of his mother at the age of three and then sat in a pool of her blood for two days. They use this as the mechanism that "made him" a sociopath. The cop who rescues him, raises him and recognizes that the kid is killing small animals and makes him for a future serial killer. So, Dad instructs the son on the mechanics of killing and concealment while also instilling in him a code of conduct that prevents him from killing anyone who is not themselves a killer of innocent people! He only kills "bad" guys. So, Dexter is a good guy relative to the people he kills.

Consider just how many people have watched and approve of the show. Surely this must demonstrate some measure of acceptance on the part of the audience? At least of the possibility a serial killer can be "good?" I think audience reaction tells us more about "morality" than the show attempts to.
When the insanity overshadows, the sanity. The sane take their leave. Last word is up for grabs. Enjoy :cheers:

Peace all
PensivePenny
 
Name: Penny
Posts: 1384
Age: 54
Female

Country: US
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Do some people need god to be good?

#70  Postby The_Metatron » Dec 08, 2016 7:28 pm

The only real problem with that scenario to society is that of control. I haven't seen this series. But on it's face, the premise seems sound. Except for the lack of control.

I suppose the writers take some care to make sure the victims are indeed killers of innocents. In the real world though, how would that work? How does Dexter (I presume he's the protagonist) choose his targets? Does society want one-man vigilantism?

As for the actions of Dexter's adoptive father, I wonder if there would have been a better way. Is it even possible to rehabilitate a true sociopath? Has it ever been done? Something tells me that I think it probably wouldn't be possible. Fortunately for the rest of us, sociopaths are a damned rare thing. The cop who raised him would be in a position to recognize Dexter's sociopathy. What to do then? How would we keep society safe from Dexter before he actually did anything wrong? If there really is no mechanism to do that, and his development is inevitable, his adoptive father directed Dexter's wrath to do the least harm. Some would say the most good.

It's a good topic for conversation.
My new website is up. Who wants to be a contributor?

I AM Skepdickus!

https://www.skepdick.us/blog/
User avatar
The_Metatron
Moderator
 
Name: Jesse
Posts: 18978
Age: 54
Male

Country: United States
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Do some people need god to be good?

#71  Postby PensivePenny » Dec 08, 2016 8:15 pm

All good questions Metatron.

What "control" do we have in society? There is no real control only the illusion of it... and societal sanctioned consequences, should you violate a codified law.

Dexter (and yes, he's the protagonist), struggles with his "need to kill" rather than wrath. The internal conflict is essential to the show. Additionally, he struggles with the morality of it all. Since he lives on the gray area between good and bad, the show is able to explore this concept. In one episode, he does kill someone he THINKS is a bad person, but finds out later they aren't. In every other way he's actually a good person, good father and husband (all things he struggles with to become).

Dexter is a "blood spatter" expert working for Miami homicide. It gives him a perfect viewpoint to know where the bad guys are and which ones walk. His ethics are compromised eventually when he begins withholding evidence and ensuring certain killers go free... so he can do the deed himself. Generally, before he kills the intended target, he surveils them, even breaking into their homes for evidence. This is his "due diligence".

Of course society doesn't "want" vigilantism, but people always do what people do, regardless of society's wants. Part of the variation of evolution, no?

I'm still watching the show and hope I'm not spoiling it for anyone. I have a suspicion, but cannot identify much foundation of foreshadow or suggestion to confirm this so I think I may just be imagining it... I think Dexter's dad is an idealist who becomes frustrated by a legal system where murderers get off on technicalities. I have wondered a few times if he doesn't cultivate the sociopath in Dexter to achieve his own brand of justice. An interesting device they use is Dexter's sister. She's biological daughter to Dexter's dad and the only sibling he knows. She also becomes a detective working in the same homicide department where Dexter works. Since both their parents die just as the kids reach adulthood, all they have is each other. They're common father/adoptive father make them a "control" for testing whether or not the sociopathy is due to Dexter's trauma or the father's parenting. It contrasts one with the other.

I think it's an illusion that we can "keep society safe." A false sense of security at best. We write laws, punish those who break them and develop technologies and investigative practices to catch people who break the laws. Beyond that I start getting real uncomfortable with my beloved government "ensuring my safety." I have visions of big Orwellian television monitors watching every sleeping moment.

Ultimately Dexter saves lives, and is lauded as a hero by some, to a small degree. Most of the people he kills are serial killers themselves. This is where suspension of disbelief is most difficult for me, but surmountable... Every season, there is essentially a new serial killer in Miami. It gives the impression that they're more common than they actually are.
When the insanity overshadows, the sanity. The sane take their leave. Last word is up for grabs. Enjoy :cheers:

Peace all
PensivePenny
 
Name: Penny
Posts: 1384
Age: 54
Female

Country: US
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Do some people need god to be good?

#72  Postby Sendraks » Dec 09, 2016 10:35 am

PensivePenny wrote:
I'm still watching the show and hope I'm not spoiling it for anyone. I have a suspicion, but cannot identify much foundation of foreshadow or suggestion to confirm this so I think I may just be imagining it... I think Dexter's dad is an idealist who becomes frustrated by a legal system where murderers get off on technicalities. I have wondered a few times if he doesn't cultivate the sociopath in Dexter to achieve his own brand of justice.


How far into Dexter are you? Because from my recollection, by season 4 I think its pretty clear where Dexter's Dad stands on all of this.
"One of the great tragedies of mankind is that morality has been hijacked by religion." - Arthur C Clarke

"'Science doesn't know everything' - Well science knows it doesn't know everything, otherwise it'd stop" - Dara O'Brian
User avatar
Sendraks
 
Name: D-Money Jr
Posts: 13470
Age: 101
Male

Country: England
Print view this post

Re: Do some people need god to be good?

#73  Postby Cito di Pense » Dec 09, 2016 10:50 am

PensivePenny wrote:What "control" do we have in society? There is no real control only the illusion of it... and societal sanctioned consequences, should you violate a codified law.


Where do we get the expectation of control? From the expectation value of a gaussian. I'm sorry if probability throws you for a loop, but we've moved on from determinism. This goes double for anything you ask a complex entity like 'society' to do for you.

If anxiety comes from not having determined answers, then so be it. Some people don't suffer anxiety on that. What's the argument, then? The fat part of the bell curve? I think we knew that already, Sherlock.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
User avatar
Cito di Pense
 
Name: Ivar Poäng
Posts: 24137
Age: 6
Male

Country: The Heartland
Mongolia (mn)
Print view this post

Re: Do some people need god to be good?

#74  Postby PensivePenny » Dec 09, 2016 1:18 pm

Sendraks wrote:
PensivePenny wrote:
I'm still watching the show and hope I'm not spoiling it for anyone. I have a suspicion, but cannot identify much foundation of foreshadow or suggestion to confirm this so I think I may just be imagining it... I think Dexter's dad is an idealist who becomes frustrated by a legal system where murderers get off on technicalities. I have wondered a few times if he doesn't cultivate the sociopath in Dexter to achieve his own brand of justice.


How far into Dexter are you? Because from my recollection, by season 4 I think its pretty clear where Dexter's Dad stands on all of this.


Season 5 I think... this is the theological series. Dexter ponders morality, dark/light, god, religion... the serial killer is trying to bring about end times by fulfilling the prophecy in Revelation. Human sacrifice exhibited in tableau-form.

Like I said, it's a suspicion... Dexter's dad isn't his dad, though. It's only his imagination, except for the occasional (relatively rare) flashback.
When the insanity overshadows, the sanity. The sane take their leave. Last word is up for grabs. Enjoy :cheers:

Peace all
PensivePenny
 
Name: Penny
Posts: 1384
Age: 54
Female

Country: US
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Do some people need god to be good?

#75  Postby PensivePenny » Dec 09, 2016 1:26 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
PensivePenny wrote:What "control" do we have in society? There is no real control only the illusion of it... and societal sanctioned consequences, should you violate a codified law.


Where do we get the expectation of control? From the expectation value of a gaussian. I'm sorry if probability throws you for a loop, but we've moved on from determinism. This goes double for anything you ask a complex entity like 'society' to do for you.

If anxiety comes from not having determined answers, then so be it. Some people don't suffer anxiety on that. What's the argument, then? The fat part of the bell curve? I think we knew that already, Sherlock.


You realize I was responding to Metatron asking the question about society controlling? I have no expectation of control. Probability doesn't "throw me for a loop," whatever the hell that's supposed to mean, and my anxiety level is perfectly fine without meds, thank you very much.
When the insanity overshadows, the sanity. The sane take their leave. Last word is up for grabs. Enjoy :cheers:

Peace all
PensivePenny
 
Name: Penny
Posts: 1384
Age: 54
Female

Country: US
United States (us)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Do some people need god to be good?

#76  Postby Cito di Pense » Dec 09, 2016 5:15 pm

PensivePenny wrote:I have no expectation of control.


No. Of course not...

PensivePenny wrote:I believe it likely that 100,000 years ago our ancestors had "morality" probably before speech. Not in the universal sense, mind you, but a control mechanism that guided their daily actions...


:clap:

I'm not trying to hold you to any statements you've made, but you're discussing a topic that doesn't produce any provable statements. Dexter, like other cop shows, is not about justice, and that's probably what you think of it, too. For justice, go with god.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
User avatar
Cito di Pense
 
Name: Ivar Poäng
Posts: 24137
Age: 6
Male

Country: The Heartland
Mongolia (mn)
Print view this post

Re: Do some people need god to be good?

#77  Postby PensivePenny » Dec 09, 2016 6:27 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
PensivePenny wrote:I have no expectation of control.


No. Of course not...

PensivePenny wrote:I believe it likely that 100,000 years ago our ancestors had "morality" probably before speech. Not in the universal sense, mind you, but a control mechanism that guided their daily actions...


:clap:

I'm not trying to hold you to any statements you've made, but you're discussing a topic that doesn't produce any provable statements. Dexter, like other cop shows, is not about justice, and that's probably what you think of it, too. For justice, go with god.


Yes, you are quite good at making absolute determinations about an entire concept simply because you see a single word with whatever connotation elicits an emotional personal reaction. "I have no expectation of control," is not the same thing as referring to ones own internal governor for their conduct. It is EXACTLY that same governor that tells me to keep my hand out of the fire. The control comes from within and is chosen by the individual. Contrast that with "what control does society have over the individual" question that metatron proposed.

I guess when one runs out of a valid, intellectual reason for attacking someone, they must resort taking out of context. You have the intelligence. That you are not consistent in its use diminishes the overall credibility of your posts.
When the insanity overshadows, the sanity. The sane take their leave. Last word is up for grabs. Enjoy :cheers:

Peace all
PensivePenny
 
Name: Penny
Posts: 1384
Age: 54
Female

Country: US
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Do some people need god to be good?

#78  Postby jamest » Dec 10, 2016 1:12 am

The question should be whether people need anything other than themselves to be good. If not, then the only remaining question of any interest concerns their true identity and nature.
They came, they saw, they concurred.
User avatar
jamest
 
Posts: 16057
Male

Country: England
Jolly Roger (arr)
Print view this post

Re: Do some people need god to be good?

#79  Postby SafeAsMilk » Dec 10, 2016 5:09 am

If it's just a person by themselves, what does good even mean?
Yes, a mighty hot dog is our Lord!
User avatar
SafeAsMilk
 
Name: Makes Fails
Posts: 10385
Age: 37
Male

United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Do some people need god to be good?

#80  Postby Cito di Pense » Dec 10, 2016 8:34 am

SafeAsMilk wrote:If it's just a person by themselves, what does good even mean?


Is it supposed to mean anything for lots of people at once? No, they just argue about what it means. Some bright bulb will always come along and say that there's value purely in having the argument, pretty much right after somebody complains that they're being 'attacked' for expressing an opinion. Somebody else will come along and pretend that 'evolutionary psychology' is science and not sexed-up philosophy or stick the word 'cognitive' in front of the word 'science', fait accompli. The gaussian is your friend, but you have to measure something, first.

No, I agree. People are entitled to express their opinions about what they think 'good' and 'bad' mean, and everyone else should just shut up, or at least not interrupt them while they're expounding. What kind of conversation is that? It's the kind of conversation that takes place in internet forums where people discuss moral philosophy because some idiotic theist apologist claims we need god in order to be good.

The real evidence that theology is bad is the way some people take years to get over it after they finally find out it's empty. Those who aren't over it yet just desperately try to put the hooks back in. What a sad, fucking mess, the absurdity of the human condition, and we fucking love it.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
User avatar
Cito di Pense
 
Name: Ivar Poäng
Posts: 24137
Age: 6
Male

Country: The Heartland
Mongolia (mn)
Print view this post

Previous

Return to Theism

Who is online

Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 1 guest