Historical Jesus

Abrahamic religion, you know, the one with the cross...

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Re: Historical Jesus

#43161  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Jul 19, 2020 4:55 pm

Alan B wrote:Bloody Hell! Quakers! Of course! And I used to go to their meetings when I was 'finding my way' when I was much younger. :doh:

The only reason they came to my mind was because I see these every time I go grocery shopping:
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"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43162  Postby RealityRules » Jul 21, 2020 12:06 pm

Cruesli, a good metaphor for Christ.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43163  Postby Leucius Charinus » Aug 05, 2020 3:12 am

"It is, I think, expedient to set forth to all mankind the reasons by which I was convinced that
the fabrication of the Christians is a fiction of men composed by wickedness. "

Emperor Julian (362 CE)
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43164  Postby Stein » Aug 05, 2020 11:45 pm

Alan B wrote:Oh, yeah. Forgot about that.

I suppose Jains and Bahais are the only ones. Although digging into history might find a few odd ones that are no longer around.


Bahais are the most modern of these. That likely makes them the least ignorant and the least insane.

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Re: Historical Jesus

#43165  Postby dogsgod » Aug 09, 2020 7:58 pm

Stein wrote:
Alan B wrote:Oh, yeah. Forgot about that.

I suppose Jains and Bahais are the only ones. Although digging into history might find a few odd ones that are no longer around.


Bahais are the most modern of these. That likely makes them the least ignorant and the least insane.

Stein

Drink Bahais Light, less ignorant and less insanity, without losing the rich taste of ignorance and insanity.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43166  Postby Briton » Aug 10, 2020 9:08 am

felltoearth wrote:My favourite kind of faith is personal. I wish people would keep it that way.


I like to remind Christians of Romans 14:22. What you believe about these things should be kept between you and God.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43167  Postby RealityRules » Aug 20, 2020 6:53 am

" The history of Jesus is not the elaboration of something which took place,
but the expression of something which men passionately wished to [have] take[n] place:
the suffering and death of a god [so] that mankind might be saved.

" To say that Jesus was a god transformed into a man is to speak both for the
believer and the historian, each according to his manner. But to declare that
Jesus was a man made into a god is equally wrong both to the faithful and to
the historian."

The Creation of Christ: an Outline of the Beginnings of Christianity by P. L. Couchard, 1939.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43168  Postby RealityRules » Aug 22, 2020 9:07 am

The Jesus of History & The Christ of Myth--SSA Talk about Jesus & the Star of Bethlehem, Aaron Adair, 2013

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Re: Historical Jesus

#43169  Postby Leucius Charinus » Sep 03, 2020 3:09 am

Long but systematic coverage of stuff.
Bit more time in isolation - thanks for the link.

RealityRules wrote:The Jesus of History & The Christ of Myth--SSA Talk about Jesus & the Star of Bethlehem, Aaron Adair, 2013



At the 54:00 mark he talks about the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ascension_of_Isaiah being a 1st or 2nd century text. The myth theory of Doherty and Carrier place this text early - in the 1st century. There is no mention of it anywhere in antiquity, People are making "kudos guesses" about everything being early. Because that's where the church dogma tells people where to look. WIKI states it could be from the 3rd century. There is nothing really preventing the text to have been composed in the 4th century when Constantine elevated Jesus to the Purple Heavens, tearing down the pagan temples and constructing the Christian basilicas.


The chronology of the history of Christian origins floats on a raft of conjectures guided by church dogma. The light-house keeper Eusebius shines the light over the Apostolic Age and the rise of the Bishops. A row of flood-lights have been erected by the utterly corrupt church industry over the 1st century. Those intoxicated by the monstrous tale relentlessly search for their car keys to christian origins under these 1st century lights.

But in which century does arguably all of the primary evidence (and the C14 results) shine ITS light on this open question ?
"It is, I think, expedient to set forth to all mankind the reasons by which I was convinced that
the fabrication of the Christians is a fiction of men composed by wickedness. "

Emperor Julian (362 CE)
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43170  Postby RealityRules » Nov 14, 2020 6:03 am

Richard Carrier has a new short book out, with a stupid title, and a stupid cover, Jesus from Outer Space: What the Earliest Christians Really Believed about Christ.

The earliest Christians believed Jesus was an ancient celestial being who put on a bodysuit of flesh, died at the hands of dark forces, and then rose from the dead and ascended back into the heavens. But the writing we have today from that first generation of Christians never says where they thought he landed, where he lived, or where he died. The idea that Jesus toured Galilee and visited Jerusalem arose only a lifetime later, in unsourced legends written in a foreign land and language. Many sources repeat those legends, but none corroborate them. Why? What exactly was the original belief about Jesus, and how did this belief change over time? In Jesus from Outer Space, noted philosopher and historian Richard Carrier summarizes for a popular audience the scholarly research on these and related questions, revealing in turn how modern attempts to conceal, misrepresent, or avoid the actual evidence calls into question the entire field of Jesus studies--and present-day beliefs about how Christianity began.


A lot is a synopsis of On the Historicity of Jesus: Why We Have Reason to Doubt, but Carrier also addresses criticisms of it and things he has raised elsewhere. It's pity there isn't better citation of On the Historicity of Jesus to provide better support for some of the things he says, in some parts at least, because there is.

Some selected parts (chapters) are available via Google Books
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43171  Postby Leucius Charinus » Nov 27, 2020 12:25 am

Dr. Robert M. Price Talks about Eusebius
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1P7KJClgwwk
"It is, I think, expedient to set forth to all mankind the reasons by which I was convinced that
the fabrication of the Christians is a fiction of men composed by wickedness. "

Emperor Julian (362 CE)
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43172  Postby dejuror » Dec 06, 2020 3:23 am

RealityRules wrote:Richard Carrier has a new short book out, with a stupid title, and a stupid cover, Jesus from Outer Space: What the Earliest Christians Really Believed about Christ.

The earliest Christians believed Jesus was an ancient celestial being who put on a bodysuit of flesh, died at the hands of dark forces, and then rose from the dead and ascended back into the heavens. But the writing we have today from that first generation of Christians never says where they thought he landed, where he lived, or where he died. The idea that Jesus toured Galilee and visited Jerusalem arose only a lifetime later, in unsourced legends written in a foreign land and language. Many sources repeat those legends, but none corroborate them. Why? What exactly was the original belief about Jesus, and how did this belief change over time? In Jesus from Outer Space, noted philosopher and historian Richard Carrier summarizes for a popular audience the scholarly research on these and related questions, revealing in turn how modern attempts to conceal, misrepresent, or avoid the actual evidence calls into question the entire field of Jesus studies--and present-day beliefs about how Christianity began.


A lot is a synopsis of On the Historicity of Jesus: Why We Have Reason to Doubt, but Carrier also addresses criticisms of it and things he has raised elsewhere. It's pity there isn't better citation of On the Historicity of Jesus to provide better support for some of the things he says, in some parts at least, because there is.

Some selected parts (chapters) are available via Google Books


These stupid hypotheses that NT Jesus was from outer space are derived from the completely baseless claims that the Pauline Epistles are the earliest Christian writings.

The Pauline Epistles are post Acts of the Apostles based on existing evidence.

It is clearly seen that the Pauline Epistles had no influence at all on early Christian writers and non-apologetics up to at least the last quarter of the 2nd century or at least c 175 CE.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43173  Postby Stein » Jan 02, 2021 6:20 pm

Illuminating piece here on how disinformation gets swallowed by cults and cranks:

"“We have an emotional relationship to information. It is not rational,” Wardle said. But people who work in the “quality information space”, Wardle’s term for journalists, scientists, researchers and factcheckers, still often act as if information-processing were fundamentally rational, rather than deeply tied to feelings and the way a person expresses their identity.

It’s crucial to understand that the way people process information is through entire narratives, not individual facts, Wardle said. Trying to combat disinformation through factchecking or debunking individual false claims just turns into an endless, fruitless game of “whack-a-mole”."

Later in this piece, we see --

"Research has also shown that disinformation and conspiracy theories are often deeply intertwined with racial prejudice and hatred"

-- as we also see among mythicists like Revilo P. Oliver, for instance, who are virulently antisemitic. I have even encountered some mythicists who are defrnsive and prickly about the Roman Empire, as a result, as if it could do no wrong!

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... SApp_Other

:thumbup:

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Re: Historical Jesus

#43174  Postby Hermit » Jan 02, 2021 8:52 pm

Thanks for telling us that mythicists are disinformed cults and cranks and possibly conspiracy theorists, Stein. ;)
God is the mysterious veil under which we hide our ignorance of the cause. - Léo Errera


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Re: Historical Jesus

#43175  Postby Stein » Jan 03, 2021 6:47 am

Hermit wrote:Thanks for telling us that mythicists are disinformed cults and cranks and possibly conspiracy theorists, Stein. ;)

Oh, they are not just disinformed. They are also fanatical purveyors of disinformation, just like Trumpists.

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Re: Historical Jesus

#43176  Postby Hermit » Jan 03, 2021 7:04 am

Beautifully argued. :clap:

Possibly even better put than your previous post.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43177  Postby Cito di Pense » Jan 03, 2021 7:14 am

Stein wrote:
Hermit wrote:Thanks for telling us that mythicists are disinformed cults and cranks and possibly conspiracy theorists, Stein. ;)

Oh, they are not just disinformed. They are also fanatical purveyors of disinformation, just like Trumpists.


Sure, but like so many other cults or conspiracies, their larger purpose is idiosyncratic when not totally obscure. When such stuff is litigated, it's important for the plaintiff to account for the harm done by the supposed misinformation. In this case, the harm is evidently seen in the wounded egos of those who also pretend to be judges ruling on the case they themselves have brought. Sad.
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Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43178  Postby RealityRules » Jan 03, 2021 9:56 pm

"Mark created a new midrash – that is, new scripture in typical Jewish fashion"
Vorster, W.S. (1993) “The production of the Gospel of Mark: An essay on intertextuality”. HTS Teologiese Studies / Theological Studies. pp. 385–396 https://hts.org.za/index.php/hts/article/view/2499/4312

Miller, D & Miller, P 1990. The Gospel of Mark as midrash on earlier Jewish and New Testament literature. Lewiston: Mellen.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43179  Postby RealityRules » Jan 06, 2021 4:17 am

Boyarin, Daniel. 2010. “The Sovereignty of the Son of Man: Reading Mark 2”, in 'The Interface of Orality and Writing: Speaking, Seeing, Writing in the Shaping of New Genres', Annette Weissenrieder and Robert B. Coote eds., pp.353–62. Tübingen, Mohr Siebeck:

"Gospel [was], as has been noted before, a fascinating new event in the literary world ... a very early instance of rabbinic genre which [came] to be known as midrash ... the building of a new narrative out of partially decontextualized and recombined verses from the Bible. // ... while the narratives of the Gospels have a kind of simplicity that we associate with folk narrative, the midrashic generation of these stories is by no means naive; they are the product of complicated relays and hermeneutic activities that underly the narrative consequences, whether birth, passion, or anything that comes in between." (p. 353)

" .. in my view, Jesus was entirely unnecessary for the formation of Mark’s Christology, as he is the fulfilment, not the provocation, of that Christology. Jesus in the Gospel of Mark is the precise fulfilment, I suggest, of well known and ancient pre-Jesus ideas about the Messiah as a divine human (which is not to deny a Markan contribution to the development of such ideas)

.. "the Son of Man” was [put] on Jesus’ lips, because he was a first-century Palestinian Jew, and “Son of Man” was the name that these Jews used for their expected divine-human (Christological) redeemer5 [5. "In contrast to Paul who [in Boyarin's view] occupies another corner of the Jewish traditional world in which different terminology was used ..."].

"The key to Christology is a partial reconsideration of the way that Daniel 7:13-14 works in the Gospel [of Mark] and of [the] Son of Man with respect to other messianic titles, particularly Son of God." (p.354-5)
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43180  Postby dogsgod » Jan 07, 2021 7:23 am

Stein wrote:Illuminating piece here on how disinformation gets swallowed by cults and cranks:

"“We have an emotional relationship to information. It is not rational,” Wardle said. But people who work in the “quality information space”, Wardle’s term for journalists, scientists, researchers and factcheckers, still often act as if information-processing were fundamentally rational, rather than deeply tied to feelings and the way a person expresses their identity.

It’s crucial to understand that the way people process information is through entire narratives, not individual facts, Wardle said. Trying to combat disinformation through factchecking or debunking individual false claims just turns into an endless, fruitless game of “whack-a-mole”."

Later in this piece, we see --

"Research has also shown that disinformation and conspiracy theories are often deeply intertwined with racial prejudice and hatred"

-- as we also see among mythicists like Revilo P. Oliver, for instance, who are virulently antisemitic. I have even encountered some mythicists who are defrnsive and prickly about the Roman Empire, as a result, as if it could do no wrong!

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... SApp_Other

:thumbup:

Stein


1- Can we know that there is an historical Jesus behind the myth? and 2- What is a mythicist? 3- Carrier says there is a 30% chance of an historical Jesus behind the myth, what does that make Carrier?
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