Historical Jesus

Abrahamic religion, you know, the one with the cross...

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Re: Historical Jesus

#43181  Postby Stein » Jan 11, 2021 1:06 am

dogsgod wrote:
Stein wrote:Illuminating piece here on how disinformation gets swallowed by cults and cranks:

"“We have an emotional relationship to information. It is not rational,” Wardle said. But people who work in the “quality information space”, Wardle’s term for journalists, scientists, researchers and factcheckers, still often act as if information-processing were fundamentally rational, rather than deeply tied to feelings and the way a person expresses their identity.

It’s crucial to understand that the way people process information is through entire narratives, not individual facts, Wardle said. Trying to combat disinformation through factchecking or debunking individual false claims just turns into an endless, fruitless game of “whack-a-mole”."

Later in this piece, we see --

"Research has also shown that disinformation and conspiracy theories are often deeply intertwined with racial prejudice and hatred"

-- as we also see among mythicists like Revilo P. Oliver, for instance, who are virulently antisemitic. I have even encountered some mythicists who are defrnsive and prickly about the Roman Empire, as a result, as if it could do no wrong!

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... SApp_Other

:thumbup:

Stein


1- Can we know that there is an historical Jesus behind the myth? and 2- What is a mythicist? 3- Carrier says there is a 30% chance of an historical Jesus behind the myth, what does that make Carrier?

Anyone who discounts A CONTEMPORARY ACCOUNT OF A FAMILY MEMBER IN A NON-HAGIOGRAPHIC SOURCE has swallowed the Kool-Aid and is the same as one of those terrorists who discount A BIDEN VICTORY DULY ACCEPTED BY REPUBLICAN JUDGES.

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Re: Historical Jesus

#43182  Postby Cito di Pense » Jan 11, 2021 1:14 am

Stein wrote:
Anyone who discounts A CONTEMPORARY ACCOUNT OF A FAMILY MEMBER IN A NON-HAGIOGRAPHIC SOURCE has swallowed the Kool-Aid and is the same as one of those terrorists who discount A BIDEN VICTORY DULY ACCEPTED BY REPUBLICAN JUDGES.

Stein


And what are you doing, Stein? You're shouting "We (the so-called historians) won by a landslide! The biggest landslide!" Thanks for playing.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43183  Postby Hermit » Jan 11, 2021 1:50 am

Cito di Pense wrote:
Stein wrote:
Anyone who discounts A CONTEMPORARY ACCOUNT OF A FAMILY MEMBER IN A NON-HAGIOGRAPHIC SOURCE has swallowed the Kool-Aid and is the same as one of those terrorists who discount A BIDEN VICTORY DULY ACCEPTED BY REPUBLICAN JUDGES.

And what are you doing, Stein? You're shouting "We (the so-called historians) won by a landslide! The biggest landslide!" Thanks for playing.

Come on now, Cito. The allcaps turn this histrionic outburst into a cogent argument. The included reference to swallowing Kool-Aid make it all the more irrefutable. The only problem with it is that Stein is only repeating himself.
God is the mysterious veil under which we hide our ignorance of the cause. - Léo Errera


God created the universe
God just exists
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43184  Postby Cito di Pense » Jan 11, 2021 8:53 am

Hermit wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
Stein wrote:
Anyone who discounts A CONTEMPORARY ACCOUNT OF A FAMILY MEMBER IN A NON-HAGIOGRAPHIC SOURCE has swallowed the Kool-Aid and is the same as one of those terrorists who discount A BIDEN VICTORY DULY ACCEPTED BY REPUBLICAN JUDGES.

And what are you doing, Stein? You're shouting "We (the so-called historians) won by a landslide! The biggest landslide!" Thanks for playing.

Come on now, Cito. The allcaps turn this histrionic outburst into a cogent argument. The included reference to swallowing Kool-Aid make it all the more irrefutable. The only problem with it is that Stein is only repeating himself.


What would it be without the allcaps? A rant, that's what it would be. But this? This is the innate historical truthiness of non-hagiographic xources. Xources? That was a Fraudian slip. These are the most winly sources. Ever.The winningest.

And, it contains the extra added truthiness of "I support Biden and am against Trump." Therefore, my historical judgement is... Is what? Unimpeachable?
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43185  Postby dogsgod » Jan 12, 2021 6:18 pm

Stein wrote:
Anyone who discounts A CONTEMPORARY ACCOUNT OF A FAMILY MEMBER IN A NON-HAGIOGRAPHIC SOURCE has swallowed the Kool-Aid and is the same as one of those terrorists who discount A BIDEN VICTORY DULY ACCEPTED BY REPUBLICAN JUDGES.

Stein

Thanks for responding to my questions like a very stable genius, Stein., because a really smart, very stable genius is just what this forum needs.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43186  Postby proudfootz » Jan 13, 2021 9:34 am

dogsgod wrote:
Stein wrote:Illuminating piece here on how disinformation gets swallowed by cults and cranks:

"“We have an emotional relationship to information. It is not rational,” Wardle said. But people who work in the “quality information space”, Wardle’s term for journalists, scientists, researchers and factcheckers, still often act as if information-processing were fundamentally rational, rather than deeply tied to feelings and the way a person expresses their identity.

It’s crucial to understand that the way people process information is through entire narratives, not individual facts, Wardle said. Trying to combat disinformation through factchecking or debunking individual false claims just turns into an endless, fruitless game of “whack-a-mole”."

Later in this piece, we see --

"Research has also shown that disinformation and conspiracy theories are often deeply intertwined with racial prejudice and hatred"

-- as we also see among mythicists like Revilo P. Oliver, for instance, who are virulently antisemitic. I have even encountered some mythicists who are defrnsive and prickly about the Roman Empire, as a result, as if it could do no wrong!

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... SApp_Other

:thumbup:

Stein


1- Can we know that there is an historical Jesus behind the myth? and 2- What is a mythicist? 3- Carrier says there is a 30% chance of an historical Jesus behind the myth, what does that make Carrier?


I think some of the Jesus-was-real advocates would take Carrier more seriously if he'd just use CAPS LOCK more, and perhaps some apocalyptic language suggesting anyone who disagrees is a threat to civilization itself.
"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." - Mark Twain
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43187  Postby RealityRules » Jan 14, 2021 4:36 pm

Stein wrote:Illuminating piece here on how disinformation gets swallowed by cults and cranks:

"“We have an emotional relationship to information. It is not rational,” Wardle said. But people who work in the “quality information space”, Wardle’s term for journalists, scientists, researchers and factcheckers, still often act as if information-processing were fundamentally rational, rather than deeply tied to feelings and the way a person expresses their identity.

It’s crucial to understand that the way people process information is through entire narratives, not individual facts, Wardle said. Trying to combat disinformation through factchecking or debunking individual false claims just turns into an endless, fruitless game of “whack-a-mole”."

-- I have even encountered some mythicists who are defrnsive and prickly about the Roman Empire, as a result, as if it could do no wrong!

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... SApp_Other

:thumbup:

Stein

DEFENSIVE? and PRICKLY? I’ll give you DEFENSIVE and PRICKLY!

I’ll even do a Stein & give you a complete red herring or two
Stein wrote:
Anyone who discounts A CONTEMPORARY ACCOUNT OF A FAMILY MEMBER IN A NON-HAGIOGRAPHIC SOURCE has swallowed the Kool-Aid and is the same as one of those terrorists who discount A BIDEN VICTORY DULY ACCEPTED BY REPUBLICAN JUDGES.

Stein

Also fallacious was the attempt to implicate mythicises are racists.

A conspiracy theory typical of a QAnon Trumper: see https://www.abc.net.au/religion/why-are ... s/13003550
Why are so many Christians to be found in the ranks of today’s conspiracy theorists? Just consider the popularity of a movement like QAnon — which claims that Donald Trump is waging a secret war against “a worldwide cabal of Satan-worshipping paedophiles” — among evangelicals ...

The Christian believes there is more to reality than meets the eye. The apostle Paul wrote to an early church community, “we live by faith, not by sight” (2 Corinthians 5:7). And Jesus [allegedly] taught his disciples, “blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed” (John 19:29). I cannot see or observe God as I might a cell under a microscope, and so I live by faith or trust in God’s previous revelation in ‘history’.

On account of such beliefs, David Robertson argues that conspiracy theories and Christianity are evidentially equivalent: “from a philosophical point of view, there is nothing inherently more irrational about any of these [conspiratorial] claims” when compared to Christian belief. The reason QAnon is deemed odd, but not Christianity, is purely contextual — the result of a developed acceptability over time.
https://www.abc.net.au/religion/why-are ... s/13003550
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43188  Postby RealityRules » Jan 14, 2021 4:42 pm

RealityRules wrote:"Mark created a new midrash – that is, new scripture in typical Jewish fashion"
Vorster, W.S. (1993) “The production of the Gospel of Mark: An essay on intertextuality”. HTS Teologiese Studies / Theological Studies. pp. 385–396 https://hts.org.za/index.php/hts/article/view/2499/4312

Miller, D & Miller, P 1990. The Gospel of Mark as midrash on earlier Jewish and New Testament literature. Lewiston: Mellen.

All Stein does is rehash his own midrashim
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