Historical Jesus

Abrahamic religion, you know, the one with the cross...

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Re: Historical Jesus

#43181  Postby Stein » Jan 11, 2021 1:06 am

dogsgod wrote:
Stein wrote:Illuminating piece here on how disinformation gets swallowed by cults and cranks:

"“We have an emotional relationship to information. It is not rational,” Wardle said. But people who work in the “quality information space”, Wardle’s term for journalists, scientists, researchers and factcheckers, still often act as if information-processing were fundamentally rational, rather than deeply tied to feelings and the way a person expresses their identity.

It’s crucial to understand that the way people process information is through entire narratives, not individual facts, Wardle said. Trying to combat disinformation through factchecking or debunking individual false claims just turns into an endless, fruitless game of “whack-a-mole”."

Later in this piece, we see --

"Research has also shown that disinformation and conspiracy theories are often deeply intertwined with racial prejudice and hatred"

-- as we also see among mythicists like Revilo P. Oliver, for instance, who are virulently antisemitic. I have even encountered some mythicists who are defrnsive and prickly about the Roman Empire, as a result, as if it could do no wrong!

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... SApp_Other

:thumbup:

Stein


1- Can we know that there is an historical Jesus behind the myth? and 2- What is a mythicist? 3- Carrier says there is a 30% chance of an historical Jesus behind the myth, what does that make Carrier?

Anyone who discounts A CONTEMPORARY ACCOUNT OF A FAMILY MEMBER IN A NON-HAGIOGRAPHIC SOURCE has swallowed the Kool-Aid and is the same as one of those terrorists who discount A BIDEN VICTORY DULY ACCEPTED BY REPUBLICAN JUDGES.

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Re: Historical Jesus

#43182  Postby Cito di Pense » Jan 11, 2021 1:14 am

Stein wrote:
Anyone who discounts A CONTEMPORARY ACCOUNT OF A FAMILY MEMBER IN A NON-HAGIOGRAPHIC SOURCE has swallowed the Kool-Aid and is the same as one of those terrorists who discount A BIDEN VICTORY DULY ACCEPTED BY REPUBLICAN JUDGES.

Stein


And what are you doing, Stein? You're shouting "We (the so-called historians) won by a landslide! The biggest landslide!" Thanks for playing.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43183  Postby Hermit » Jan 11, 2021 1:50 am

Cito di Pense wrote:
Stein wrote:
Anyone who discounts A CONTEMPORARY ACCOUNT OF A FAMILY MEMBER IN A NON-HAGIOGRAPHIC SOURCE has swallowed the Kool-Aid and is the same as one of those terrorists who discount A BIDEN VICTORY DULY ACCEPTED BY REPUBLICAN JUDGES.

And what are you doing, Stein? You're shouting "We (the so-called historians) won by a landslide! The biggest landslide!" Thanks for playing.

Come on now, Cito. The allcaps turn this histrionic outburst into a cogent argument. The included reference to swallowing Kool-Aid make it all the more irrefutable. The only problem with it is that Stein is only repeating himself.
God is the mysterious veil under which we hide our ignorance of the cause. - Léo Errera


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Re: Historical Jesus

#43184  Postby Cito di Pense » Jan 11, 2021 8:53 am

Hermit wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
Stein wrote:
Anyone who discounts A CONTEMPORARY ACCOUNT OF A FAMILY MEMBER IN A NON-HAGIOGRAPHIC SOURCE has swallowed the Kool-Aid and is the same as one of those terrorists who discount A BIDEN VICTORY DULY ACCEPTED BY REPUBLICAN JUDGES.

And what are you doing, Stein? You're shouting "We (the so-called historians) won by a landslide! The biggest landslide!" Thanks for playing.

Come on now, Cito. The allcaps turn this histrionic outburst into a cogent argument. The included reference to swallowing Kool-Aid make it all the more irrefutable. The only problem with it is that Stein is only repeating himself.


What would it be without the allcaps? A rant, that's what it would be. But this? This is the innate historical truthiness of non-hagiographic xources. Xources? That was a Fraudian slip. These are the most winly sources. Ever.The winningest.

And, it contains the extra added truthiness of "I support Biden and am against Trump." Therefore, my historical judgement is... Is what? Unimpeachable?
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43185  Postby dogsgod » Jan 12, 2021 6:18 pm

Stein wrote:
Anyone who discounts A CONTEMPORARY ACCOUNT OF A FAMILY MEMBER IN A NON-HAGIOGRAPHIC SOURCE has swallowed the Kool-Aid and is the same as one of those terrorists who discount A BIDEN VICTORY DULY ACCEPTED BY REPUBLICAN JUDGES.

Stein

Thanks for responding to my questions like a very stable genius, Stein., because a really smart, very stable genius is just what this forum needs.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43186  Postby proudfootz » Jan 13, 2021 9:34 am

dogsgod wrote:
Stein wrote:Illuminating piece here on how disinformation gets swallowed by cults and cranks:

"“We have an emotional relationship to information. It is not rational,” Wardle said. But people who work in the “quality information space”, Wardle’s term for journalists, scientists, researchers and factcheckers, still often act as if information-processing were fundamentally rational, rather than deeply tied to feelings and the way a person expresses their identity.

It’s crucial to understand that the way people process information is through entire narratives, not individual facts, Wardle said. Trying to combat disinformation through factchecking or debunking individual false claims just turns into an endless, fruitless game of “whack-a-mole”."

Later in this piece, we see --

"Research has also shown that disinformation and conspiracy theories are often deeply intertwined with racial prejudice and hatred"

-- as we also see among mythicists like Revilo P. Oliver, for instance, who are virulently antisemitic. I have even encountered some mythicists who are defrnsive and prickly about the Roman Empire, as a result, as if it could do no wrong!

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... SApp_Other

:thumbup:

Stein


1- Can we know that there is an historical Jesus behind the myth? and 2- What is a mythicist? 3- Carrier says there is a 30% chance of an historical Jesus behind the myth, what does that make Carrier?


I think some of the Jesus-was-real advocates would take Carrier more seriously if he'd just use CAPS LOCK more, and perhaps some apocalyptic language suggesting anyone who disagrees is a threat to civilization itself.
"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." - Mark Twain
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43187  Postby RealityRules » Jan 14, 2021 4:36 pm

Stein wrote:Illuminating piece here on how disinformation gets swallowed by cults and cranks:

"“We have an emotional relationship to information. It is not rational,” Wardle said. But people who work in the “quality information space”, Wardle’s term for journalists, scientists, researchers and factcheckers, still often act as if information-processing were fundamentally rational, rather than deeply tied to feelings and the way a person expresses their identity.

It’s crucial to understand that the way people process information is through entire narratives, not individual facts, Wardle said. Trying to combat disinformation through factchecking or debunking individual false claims just turns into an endless, fruitless game of “whack-a-mole”."

-- I have even encountered some mythicists who are defrnsive and prickly about the Roman Empire, as a result, as if it could do no wrong!

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... SApp_Other

:thumbup:

Stein

DEFENSIVE? and PRICKLY? I’ll give you DEFENSIVE and PRICKLY!

I’ll even do a Stein & give you a complete red herring or two
Stein wrote:
Anyone who discounts A CONTEMPORARY ACCOUNT OF A FAMILY MEMBER IN A NON-HAGIOGRAPHIC SOURCE has swallowed the Kool-Aid and is the same as one of those terrorists who discount A BIDEN VICTORY DULY ACCEPTED BY REPUBLICAN JUDGES.

Stein

Also fallacious was the attempt to implicate mythicises are racists.

A conspiracy theory typical of a QAnon Trumper: see https://www.abc.net.au/religion/why-are ... s/13003550
Why are so many Christians to be found in the ranks of today’s conspiracy theorists? Just consider the popularity of a movement like QAnon — which claims that Donald Trump is waging a secret war against “a worldwide cabal of Satan-worshipping paedophiles” — among evangelicals ...

The Christian believes there is more to reality than meets the eye. The apostle Paul wrote to an early church community, “we live by faith, not by sight” (2 Corinthians 5:7). And Jesus [allegedly] taught his disciples, “blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed” (John 19:29). I cannot see or observe God as I might a cell under a microscope, and so I live by faith or trust in God’s previous revelation in ‘history’.

On account of such beliefs, David Robertson argues that conspiracy theories and Christianity are evidentially equivalent: “from a philosophical point of view, there is nothing inherently more irrational about any of these [conspiratorial] claims” when compared to Christian belief. The reason QAnon is deemed odd, but not Christianity, is purely contextual — the result of a developed acceptability over time.
https://www.abc.net.au/religion/why-are ... s/13003550
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43188  Postby RealityRules » Jan 14, 2021 4:42 pm

RealityRules wrote:"Mark created a new midrash – that is, new scripture in typical Jewish fashion"
Vorster, W.S. (1993) “The production of the Gospel of Mark: An essay on intertextuality”. HTS Teologiese Studies / Theological Studies. pp. 385–396 https://hts.org.za/index.php/hts/article/view/2499/4312

Miller, D & Miller, P 1990. The Gospel of Mark as midrash on earlier Jewish and New Testament literature. Lewiston: Mellen.

All Stein does is rehash his own midrashim
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43189  Postby Stein » Feb 18, 2021 8:43 am

RealityRules wrote:
Stein wrote:Illuminating piece here on how disinformation gets swallowed by cults and cranks:

"“We have an emotional relationship to information. It is not rational,” Wardle said. But people who work in the “quality information space”, Wardle’s term for journalists, scientists, researchers and factcheckers, still often act as if information-processing were fundamentally rational, rather than deeply tied to feelings and the way a person expresses their identity.

It’s crucial to understand that the way people process information is through entire narratives, not individual facts, Wardle said. Trying to combat disinformation through factchecking or debunking individual false claims just turns into an endless, fruitless game of “whack-a-mole”."

-- I have even encountered some mythicists who are defrnsive and prickly about the Roman Empire, as a result, as if it could do no wrong!

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... SApp_Other

:thumbup:

Stein

DEFENSIVE? and PRICKLY? I’ll give you DEFENSIVE and PRICKLY!

I’ll even do a Stein & give you a complete red herring or two
Stein wrote:
Anyone who discounts A CONTEMPORARY ACCOUNT OF A FAMILY MEMBER IN A NON-HAGIOGRAPHIC SOURCE has swallowed the Kool-Aid and is the same as one of those terrorists who discount A BIDEN VICTORY DULY ACCEPTED BY REPUBLICAN JUDGES.

Stein

Also fallacious was the attempt to implicate mythicises are racists.

A conspiracy theory typical of a QAnon Trumper: see https://www.abc.net.au/religion/why-are ... s/13003550
Why are so many Christians to be found in the ranks of today’s conspiracy theorists? Just consider the popularity of a movement like QAnon — which claims that Donald Trump is waging a secret war against “a worldwide cabal of Satan-worshipping paedophiles” — among evangelicals ...

The Christian believes there is more to reality than meets the eye. The apostle Paul wrote to an early church community, “we live by faith, not by sight” (2 Corinthians 5:7). And Jesus [allegedly] taught his disciples, “blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed” (John 19:29). I cannot see or observe God as I might a cell under a microscope, and so I live by faith or trust in God’s previous revelation in ‘history’.

On account of such beliefs, David Robertson argues that conspiracy theories and Christianity are evidentially equivalent: “from a philosophical point of view, there is nothing inherently more irrational about any of these [conspiratorial] claims” when compared to Christian belief. The reason QAnon is deemed odd, but not Christianity, is purely contextual — the result of a developed acceptability over time.
https://www.abc.net.au/religion/why-are ... s/13003550


AND OF COURSE RR KNOWS

D A M N

W E L L

THAT MOST OF THE HISTORICISTS ON THIS FORUM ARE

N O T

C H R I S T I A N S.

THAT IS FLAGRANT MISREPRESENTATION OF THE POSTERS HERE, WHICH

V I O L A T E S

1.2.M

OF THIS BOARD'S CODE. WHEN ARE WE GOING TO SEE

1.2.M

ENFORCED?

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Re: Historical Jesus

#43190  Postby Hermit » Feb 18, 2021 8:48 am

Stop shouting.
God is the mysterious veil under which we hide our ignorance of the cause. - Léo Errera


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Re: Historical Jesus

#43191  Postby RealityRules » Feb 19, 2021 5:41 am

RealityRules wrote:
Ephesians 1:9-10

    He made known to us the Mystery of His will...which He purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.


Beforehand, Ephesians 1:3-4 is -

    Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.

Immediately after Eph. 1:9-10 are vv. 11-13 -

    11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who are [the] ones first trusted in Christ, for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. . . .

Ephesians 1 finishes -

     22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43192  Postby proudfootz » Feb 19, 2021 6:41 pm

I guess I simply fail to see how a sober examination of an historical curiosity like christianity makes anyone a cultist or terrorist.

With reference to the 'Kool-Aid' meme it pays to look into the facts:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/bruceweins ... ts%20worse.
"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." - Mark Twain
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43193  Postby dogsgod » Feb 20, 2021 11:45 pm

It appears the very smart stable genius has struck again. We're not reading our Bible like a Christian fundamentalist, shame on us.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43194  Postby RealityRules » Feb 21, 2021 12:29 am

Stein wrote:
AND OF COURSE RR KNOWS

D A M N

W E L L

THAT MOST OF THE HISTORICISTS ON THIS FORUM ARE

N O T

C H R I S T I A N S.

no, I don't know that.

What I do know is you do not address the topic of the thread in any rational manner.

As for this CRAP

Stein wrote:
Anyone who discounts A CONTEMPORARY ACCOUNT OF A FAMILY MEMBER IN A NON-HAGIOGRAPHIC SOURCE has swallowed the Kool-Aid and is the same as one of those terrorists who discount A BIDEN VICTORY DULY ACCEPTED BY REPUBLICAN JUDGES.


I'd emphasise it like this

    Anyone Who Discounts “A Contemporary Account of a Family Member In A Non-Hagiographic Source” HAS SWALLOWED THE KOOL-AID and IS THE SAME AS ONE OF THOSE TERRORISTS Who Discount A Biden Victory Duly Accepted By Republican Judges.

Your Weird Attempt to Duly Republicanize the issues is Duly noted, too.

Regarding 'Non-Hagiographic Source' - there's no such thing in Christian history

    Hagiography: a biography that treats its subject with undue reverence
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43195  Postby RealityRules » Feb 21, 2021 12:33 am

.
    Will there ever be any definitive evidence for a historical Jesus ?

    Is a supernatural, shape-shifting Jesus the best Jesus ?
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43196  Postby RealityRules » Feb 23, 2021 7:21 pm

Justin Martyr's First Apology chapters 59 and 60
you may learn that it was from our teachers--we mean the account given through the prophets--that Plato borrowed his statement that God, having altered matter which was shapeless, made the world, hear the very words spoken through Moses, who, as above shown, was the first prophet, and of greater antiquity than the Greek writers; and through whom the Spirit of prophecy, signifying how and from what materials God at first formed the world, spake thus:

    "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was invisible and unfurnished, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God moved over the waters. And God said, Let there be light; and it was so."
So that both Plato and they who agree with him, and we ourselves, have learned, and you also can be convinced, that by the word of God the whole world was made out of the substance spoken of before by Moses. And that which the poets call Erebus, we know was spoken of formerly by Moses.

And the physiological discussion concerning the Son of God in the Timoeus of Plato, where he says, "He placed him crosswise in the universe," he borrowed in like manner from Moses; for in the writings of Moses it is related how at that time, when the Israelites went out of Egypt and were in the wilderness, they fell in with poisonous beasts, both vipers and asps, and every kind of serpent, which slew the people; and that Moses, by the inspiration and influence of God, took brass, and made it into the figure of a cross, and set it in the holy tabernacle, and said to the people, "If ye look to this figure, and believe, ye shall be saved thereby."

And when this was done, it is recorded that the serpents died, and it is handed down that the people thus escaped death.

Which things Plato reading, and not accurately understanding, and not apprehending that it was the figure of the cross, but taking it to be a placing crosswise, he said that the power next to the first God was placed crosswise in the universe.

And as to his speaking of a third, he did this because he read, as we said above, that which was spoken by Moses, "that the Spirit of God moved over the waters." For he gives the second place to the Logos which is with God, who he said was placed crosswise in the universe; and the third place to the Spirit who was said to be borne upon the water, saying, "And the third around the third."

And hear how the Spirit of prophecy signified through Moses that there should be a conflagration.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43197  Postby RealityRules » Feb 27, 2021 4:11 am

RealityRules wrote:
Justin Martyr, First Apology chapter 60:
... concerning the Son of God in the Timoeus of Plato, where he says, "He placed him crosswise in the universe," he borrowed in like manner from Moses ...

Plato's Republic, bk II, 361-2:
those who commend injustice above justice...will say is this: that such being his disposition the just man will have to endure the lash, the rack, chains, the branding-iron in his eyes, and finally, after all manner of suffering, he will be crucified, and so will learn his lesson that not to be but to seem just is what we ought to desire ... ”
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43198  Postby Matt8819 » Feb 27, 2021 10:37 pm

how is this thread still going
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43199  Postby RealityRules » Feb 28, 2021 9:21 pm

RealityRules wrote:Justin Martyr's First Apology chapter 60
And the physiological discussion concerning the Son of God in the Timoeus of Plato, where he says, "He placed him crosswise in the universe," he borrowed in like manner from Moses; for in the writings of Moses it is related how at that time, when the Israelites went out of Egypt and were in the wilderness, they fell in with poisonous beasts, both vipers and asps, and every kind of serpent, which slew the people; and that Moses, by the inspiration and influence of God, took brass, and made it into the figure of a cross, and set it in the holy tabernacle, and said to the people, "If ye look to this figure, and believe, ye shall be saved thereby".*

And when this was done, it is recorded that the serpents died, and it is handed down that the people thus escaped death.

Which things Plato reading, and not accurately understanding, and not apprehending that it was the figure of the cross, but taking it to be a placing crosswise, he said that the power next to the first God was placed crosswise in the universe.

* Justin is invoking and elaborating on an account about Moses from Numbers 21.

Numbers 21:8-9:
8 And Moses prayed to the Lord for the people; and the Lord said to Moses, 'Make thee a serpent, and put it on a signal-staff ; and it shall come to pass that whenever a serpent shall bite a man, every one so bitten that looks upon it shall live.'

9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a signal-staff : and it came to pass that whenever a serpent bit a man, and he looked on the brazen serpent, he lived.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43200  Postby proudfootz » Mar 01, 2021 3:09 am

Matt8819 wrote:how is this thread still going


Every now and then someone leaps up and starts shouting, waking the rest of us up.

If only we could harness the energy of the Kap-LocKs Krew and put it to peaceful purposes. :coffee:
"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." - Mark Twain
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