Is this a miracle?

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Is this a miracle?

#1  Postby termina » Jan 25, 2013 2:10 pm

Hello!

Some muslim apologists make the claim that the Quran overall consistence is proof of its superhuman origin.
Their argument is the following:
The revelation of this Scripture was gradual and took 23 years, BTW once a verse was revealed it wasn't modified.
Each part was revealed in a specific context: eg, to debunk idolaters' arguments, to answer people's inquiry, to set rules, to give instruction in times of wars,...
and yet, each surah (ie, chapter) is coherent with an other; in asmuch they convey, or are compatible with,the idea of existence of an all-powerful, all-just, merciful Creator, of Unicity and Purity of the Creator (as opposed to polytheism, and Trinitarian Christianism), and of people's physical and spiritual dependance on Him.

This shows the author of the Quran knew the future: how to react to such or such situation and how to answer his fellow Arabic counter-arguments, without deviating from coherence, (as opposed to all human-authored masterpieces which after being completed must undergo revision to achieve perfect coherence)


So let's grant Quran's overall coherence and and let's suppose it hasn't be revised,
would their claim of miracle still work?
Last edited by termina on Jan 25, 2013 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is this a miracle?

#2  Postby Shrunk » Jan 25, 2013 2:15 pm

termina wrote:Hello!

Some muslim apologists make the claim that the Quran overall consistence is proof of its superhuman origin.
Their argument is the following:
The revelation of this Scripture was gradual and took 23 years, BTW once a verse was revealed it wasn't modified.
Each part was revealed in a specific context: eg, to debunk idolaters' arguments, to answer people's inquiry, to set rules,...
and yet, each surah (ie, chapter) is coherent with any other inas much they convey, or are coherent with,the idea of existence of an all-powerful, all-just, merciful Creator, of Unicity and Purity of the Creator (as opposed to polytheism, and Trinital Christianism), and of people's physical and spiritual dependance on Him.

This shows the author of the Quran knew the future: how to react to such or such situation and how to answer his fellow Arabic counter-arguments, without deviating from coherence, (as opposed to all human-authored masterpieces which after being completed must undergo revision to achieve perfect coherence)


So let's grant Quran's overall coherence and and let's suppose it hasn't be revised,
would their claim of miracle still work?


Homer's epics are now believed to have been spontaneously delivered improvisations. They are every bit as coherent as the Quran, with considerably greater literary worth.
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Re: Is this a miracle?

#3  Postby Moonwatcher » Jan 25, 2013 8:38 pm

I think Muslims also have a saying that any errors in the Quran are errors of copying so not buying that there are no errors. However, as for "philosophical consistency", I don't know if it has or not because I don't see why I have to be familiar with every mythology in detail in order to reject it. Whereas the Bible, O.T. and N.T., are the work of countless people throughout a millennia or more and represent many clashing points of view, the most a "philosophical consistency" can possibly be evidence for is that it is the work ultimately of one person or of a group that tried to stay true to that vision.
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Re: Is this a miracle?

#4  Postby Ironclad » Jan 25, 2013 9:13 pm

The Koran is the direct revelation of god, because it says so in the Koran. :coffee:
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Re: Is this a miracle?

#5  Postby Fenrir » Jan 25, 2013 11:06 pm

In order to be counted as miraculous the claimed event would have to be a miracle. Internal consistency is a feature of all vaguely competent literature, without it literature would not be readable (with the possible exception of "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas"). If internal consistency is the definition of a miracle these days then our schools of writing are in a parlous state indeed.

and yet, each surah (ie, chapter) is coherent with any other inas much they convey, or are coherent with,the idea of existence of a Middle Earth, and of people's physical and spiritual interaction with Elves.
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Re: Is this a miracle?

#6  Postby mickeko » Jan 26, 2013 3:02 pm

Ironclad wrote:The Koran is the direct revelation of god, because it says so in the Koran. :coffee:


Does it really matter if it would be what it claims? Even if it is a revelation from some mystical figure muslims choose to call Allah, betold to the bloke named Mohammad who just happened to get picked out for the task, would you accept Allah as the one true God? I would not. Books mean absolutely NOTHING when it comes to providing evidence for something being divine, and I really doubt there is anything that can. What evidence could I give you, supposing I'm God, which would work as evidence? Knowledge of things you don't know about? That just proves I know more. Healing diseases which you can't? That just proves I know more. Create another universe? That would still just prove I know more than you... I can't provide proof for being anything other than more advanced than you. Even if I wave a hand to make a million people believe, it always ends up in faith. And I seriously doubt something which would be so advanced that it could create universes on a whim would give a shit if we believe in it or not.
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Re: Is this a miracle?

#7  Postby wtargentina » Jan 26, 2013 4:37 pm

Nope.
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Re: Is this a miracle?

#8  Postby Spearthrower » Jan 29, 2013 8:40 am

Is this a miracle?

Yes.


Oh no, wait a second, I meant no.
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Re: Is this a miracle?

#9  Postby lyingcheat » Jan 29, 2013 10:01 am

termina wrote;
So let's grant Quran's overall coherence and and let's suppose it hasn't be revised,


From what I've read (about it), the Quran is not particularly coherent (hence the various islamic sects) and was revised and reshuffled (early in its history) a few times.
So the claim that it is coherent and hasn't been revised is itself a false claim, in relation to a book full of false claims.

Pretty standard for religions really. The only miracle here is that anyone believes it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Quran

I would also question this part of the argument, in relation to the use of the word 'coherent'.
termina wrote;
...and yet, each surah (ie, chapter) is coherent with an other; in asmuch they convey, or are compatible with,the idea of existence of an all-powerful, all-just, merciful Creator...


It is not particularly 'coherent' to claim an "all-just, merciful Creator" is responsible for the many recommendations for mass genocide and individual slaughter contained within the Quran.
I note it's the same claim made by the other Abrahamic religions, with the same lack of coherence.
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Re: Is this a miracle?

#10  Postby Scot Dutchy » Jan 29, 2013 11:49 am

Myths in islam Women and islam Musilm opinion polls


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Re: Is this a miracle?

#11  Postby Shrunk » Jan 29, 2013 12:18 pm

lyingcheat wrote:I would also question this part of the argument, in relation to the use of the word 'coherent'.
termina wrote;
...and yet, each surah (ie, chapter) is coherent with an other; in asmuch they convey, or are compatible with,the idea of existence of an all-powerful, all-just, merciful Creator...


It is not particularly 'coherent' to claim an "all-just, merciful Creator" is responsible for the many recommendations for mass genocide and individual slaughter contained within the Quran.
I note it's the same claim made by the other Abrahamic religions, with the same lack of coherence.


Besides which it is a totally banal claim. You could just as easily say "Each chapter of The Lord of the Rings conveys, or is compatible with, the existence of hobbits and an evil. powerful ring that must be destroyed."
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