Most Supernatural Experience So Far?

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Re: Most Supernatural Experience So Far?

#41  Postby SafeAsMilk » May 08, 2019 8:00 pm

aufbahrung wrote:Don't believe in the supernatural, interested in making a credible argument

Well then, go for it. Haven't seen a credible argument yet!

more as a thought salad experiment.

More salad than thought, for sure.
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Re: Most Supernatural Experience So Far?

#42  Postby BlackBart » May 08, 2019 8:18 pm

aufbahrung wrote:Guess I'm playing devils advocate for folks too clever to fall for my spiel here. Don't believe in the supernatural, interested in making a credible argument more as a thought salad experiment.


Ah, the classic 'I was playing devils advocate' strategy. For future reference, try announcing that before the fact, rather than after - it works wonders for one's credibility.
Last edited by BlackBart on May 08, 2019 9:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Most Supernatural Experience So Far?

#43  Postby newolder » May 08, 2019 8:37 pm

aufbahrung wrote:Guess I'm playing devils advocate for folks too clever to fall for my spiel here. Don't believe in the supernatural, interested in making a credible argument more as a thought salad experiment.

Just for the/your grammatical record, is the number of devils (for which you are playing advocate here) singular or plural? (rhetorical question)
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Re: Most Supernatural Experience So Far?

#44  Postby Mike_L » May 08, 2019 9:11 pm

tuco wrote:taj mahal ?


SafeAsMilk wrote:Mona Lisa!


No! 'Our Lady of Guadalupe' is the one!

Way back here (in 2011) we had a poster claiming that the painting was proof of the divine / supernatural...
No evidence of an underpainting or underdrawing... therefore God.
No visible brushmarks... therefore God.
It has lasted very well (since 1531) with little or no deterioration of the hemp-linen support, little or no cracking of the paint surface and little or no fading of the pigments... therefore God.

Each of these is easily addressed...

It's possible to do an underdrawing so faint (in loose charcoal) that it's essentially invisible once paint has been applied. Watercolor painters do it all the time.
According to Wikipedia, the painting is done in distemper -- a mixture of glue, chalk and pigment. This paint can be applied in thin glazes that leave no brushmarks. (Present-day artist Koo Schadler teaches how it's done using the similar medium of egg tempera).
The painting's durability can be ascribed to the relatively dry climate in which it has been kept (Mexico City).

But then there's The Garden of Earthly Delights. Now that one is really divine! :coffee:
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Re: Most Supernatural Experience So Far?

#45  Postby SafeAsMilk » May 08, 2019 9:37 pm

I love all the pink shit in that triptych, especially on the Satanic panel.
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Re: Most Supernatural Experience So Far?

#46  Postby Spearthrower » May 08, 2019 9:52 pm

aufbahrung wrote:I'm just saying the supernatural might exist but the clues are subtle until you die(or beyond death).


Might, might not... there's no real way of knowing, is there? For that, one would surely need evidence, not clues. Given human psychological propensity to believe in all manner of absurdities, and given how the supernatural includes a vast array of humans projecting their hopes and fears onto the cosmos, I can't imagine why lending credence to such notions is of any benefit or utility.

How does believing in the supernatural aid you in any way? Does it let you do things someone who doesn't believe can't do? How does the belief help you?

Is believing in things you have no good reason to believe meant to be a desirable state of affairs? Is it virtuous?


aufbahrung wrote: So subtle they require a slower pace of life to notice,...


Why would that be a requisite?


aufbahrung wrote:... and even then the experience of supernaturalness might be 'delusion or madness' rather than the supernatural.


Or honest error, ignorance, fear, or any other manner of psychological frailties.


aufbahrung wrote: Because it is your own subjective experience not some commie groupthink thing.


Where did that non-sequitur spring from? What has class friction and publicly owned property got to do with anything you've so far discussed?

Incidentally, you fapped a bit earlier about how you're just trying to get people to think outside the box... but you're not showing any propensity for that yourself. How many people come here claiming they're novel, unique, special... and yet never manage to show they are, only attempt to stupidly berate other people for not instantly genuflecting to the load of old tosh they're selling?

For my part, talk is cheap. Easiest thing in the world to string together sentences and formulate assertions. But words are also wind. If you've got something substantive: share it... but condescending at people suggests very strongly to me that you have no case at all which is why you appeal to a genetic fallacy.
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Re: Most Supernatural Experience So Far?

#47  Postby Spearthrower » May 08, 2019 9:53 pm

aufbahrung wrote:Guess I'm playing devils advocate for folks too clever to fall for my spiel here. Don't believe in the supernatural, interested in making a credible argument more as a thought salad experiment.



Recipe for thought salad experiment:

1) Add more meat.
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Re: Most Supernatural Experience So Far?

#48  Postby Fenrir » May 09, 2019 12:12 am

I lost my keys once.

Then I found them.

Right where I'd left them.

Coincidence?

Or.....
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Re: Most Supernatural Experience So Far?

#49  Postby Spearthrower » May 09, 2019 12:15 am

Fenrir wrote:I lost my keys once.

Then I found them.

Right where I'd left them.

Coincidence?

Or.....



Spooky shit.
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Re: Most Supernatural Experience So Far?

#50  Postby Hermit » May 09, 2019 5:35 am

laklak wrote:Yeah it might exist. Nanobot aliens could exist. Might even be running around in your brain now and you wouldn't know it. Could be, eh? God could exist. Dragons could exist. Just because nobody has ever actually seen them doesn't mean they couldn't exist, right?

That's what Bertrand Russel's flying teapot is (tangetially) about. Also, Henderson's spaghetti monster, Sagan's dragon in the garage and the pink unicorn. You can't disprove the existence of any of them. They are unfalsifiable hypotheses. Of course you can't prove their existence either, and the onus is on the advocate of their existence to provide proof. Good luck to them.

My favourite story in regard to this stuff is John Wisdom's story of the invisible gardener.
Once upon a time two explorers came upon a clearing in the jungle. In the clearing were growing many flowers and many weeds. One explorer says, "Some gardener must tend this plot." The other disagrees, "There is no gardener." So they pitch their tents and set a watch. No gardener is ever seen. "But perhaps he is an invisible gardener." So they set up a barbed-wire fence. They electrify it. They patrol with bloodhounds. (For they remember how H. G. Well's The Invisible Man could be both smelt and touched though he could not be seen.) But no shrieks ever suggest that some intruder has received a shock. No movements of the wire ever betray an invisible climber. The bloodhounds never give cry. Yet still the Believer is not convinced. "But there is a gardener, invisible, intangible, insensible, to electric shocks, a gardener who has no scent and makes no sound, a gardener who comes secretly to look after the garden which he loves. At last the Skeptic despairs, "But what remains of your original assertion? Just how does what you call an invisible, intangible, eternally elusive gardener differ from an imaginary gardener or even from no gardener at all?"
God is the mysterious veil under which we hide our ignorance of the cause. - Léo Errera


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God just exists
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Re: Most Supernatural Experience So Far?

#51  Postby aufbahrung » May 09, 2019 6:57 am

One day someone will put a tea pot in orbit around the sun. And you'll regret saying there isn't one then.
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Re: Most Supernatural Experience So Far?

#52  Postby Hermit » May 09, 2019 7:09 am

aufbahrung wrote:One day someone will put a tea pot in orbit around the sun. And you'll regret saying there isn't one then.

I will not regret saying there isn't one. I'll say: "Someone has put a tea pot in orbit around the sun." instead. "Look. There it is! Our instruments can detect and track it. We can even predict where it will be in an hour/day/year. Science is a wonderful thing. So is technology." :dance:
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Re: Most Supernatural Experience So Far?

#53  Postby aufbahrung » May 09, 2019 8:05 am

Hermit wrote:
aufbahrung wrote:One day someone will put a tea pot in orbit around the sun. And you'll regret saying there isn't one then.

I will not regret saying there isn't one. I'll say: "Someone has put a tea pot in orbit around the sun." instead. "Look. There it is! Our instruments can detect and track it. We can even predict where it will be in an hour/day/year. Science is a wonderful thing. So is technology." :dance:


Can't even track a car in orbit around the sun, no hope for a tea-pot.
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Re: Most Supernatural Experience So Far?

#54  Postby BlackBart » May 09, 2019 8:17 am

The car is wooshing about waaay above your head - much like the point Hermit was making.
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Re: Most Supernatural Experience So Far?

#55  Postby Hermit » May 09, 2019 8:33 am

aufbahrung wrote:
Hermit wrote:
aufbahrung wrote:One day someone will put a tea pot in orbit around the sun. And you'll regret saying there isn't one then.

I will not regret saying there isn't one. I'll say: "Someone has put a tea pot in orbit around the sun." instead. "Look. There it is! Our instruments can detect and track it. We can even predict where it will be in an hour/day/year. Science is a wonderful thing. So is technology." :dance:

Can't even track a car in orbit around the sun, no hope for a tea-pot.

Nice shot, that. Pity, you hit your own foot. Now explain to us all why I would regret having said there isn't a flying teapot? You just mentioned it is undetectable, right? Now, let me remind you of what I did post: "I'm not saying the supernatural does not exist. It's just that we have no way of knowing whether it does or not."

Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. - Ludwig Wittgenstein
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Re: Most Supernatural Experience So Far?

#56  Postby Cito di Pense » May 09, 2019 9:36 am

The idea of the supernatural originates with people who had no idea there was a natural account of anything. The kind of epistemology which says that this 'supernatural' is unknowable is almost as ignorant as the folks who gave us the supernatural in the first place. A better bet for a stupid™ brand of epistemology is to say that the origin of supernatural concepts is unknowable.

There's a way to get this ignorant epistemology off the hook, and that is with human psychology, e.g., the way parents tell scary stories to their kids to get them to behave themselves. It doesn't demonstrate anything positively but it does lubricate intuition a little more than the stupid™ epistemology does. Passing off scary stories as a problem in epistemology to adults, as aufbahrung is trying to do, is brain dead.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Most Supernatural Experience So Far?

#57  Postby aufbahrung » May 09, 2019 9:44 am

A break in the physical laws of the universe such might as happen when a parallel universe with different rules collides for a moment or longer with this one. This is my defintion I'm playing around with in the clutter of my mind. Since it is by definition 'supernatural' the laws of this universe do not apply. But that of other parallel universes we don't know - anymore than if we are embedded in a 'simulation or matrix' we don't know for sure pi isn't 3. Now you'll think.
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Re: Most Supernatural Experience So Far?

#58  Postby felltoearth » May 09, 2019 9:48 am

If a parallel universe “collided” with our universe that infers it has a physical manifestation therefore not supernatural.

Do you think you’re the only one who has ever thought this?
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Re: Most Supernatural Experience So Far?

#59  Postby Spearthrower » May 09, 2019 10:02 am

aufbahrung wrote:A break in the physical laws of the universe such might as happen when a parallel universe with different rules collides for a moment or longer with this one.


What?

A parallel universe?

Collides?

What are these universes doing? Playing dodgem cars? Doggy-paddle in the cosmic soup?


aufbahrung wrote: This is my defintion I'm playing around with in the clutter of my mind. Since it is by definition 'supernatural' the laws of this universe do not apply. But that of other parallel universes we don't know - anymore than if we are embedded in a 'simulation or matrix' we don't know for sure pi isn't 3.


What is by definition 'supernatural'? A purported other universe purportedly colliding with ours and what... some of the laws of that purported other universe leaking into our own universe and twanging things about?

It's not anything, aufbahrung; not supernatural, not even sci-fi.


aufbahrung wrote:Now you'll think.


Undoubtedly everyone will. But what will they think?
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Re: Most Supernatural Experience So Far?

#60  Postby Rachel Bronwyn » May 09, 2019 10:03 am

I'm pretty sure there was a ghost in my bedroom for several seconds after I woke up from a dream once.
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