My Islam Story

Abrahamic religion, you know, the one with the mosques...

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Re: My Islam Story

#61  Postby Fallible » Jan 27, 2018 5:41 pm

Goal posts.
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If I hear that fucking phrase again, this baby's gonna blow
Into a million itsy bitsy tiny pieces, don't you know,
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Re: My Islam Story

#62  Postby surreptitious57 » Jan 27, 2018 7:43 pm

quas wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:
quas wrote:
If you are not aware of this its because you guys dont live in a Muslim majority area

I am not aware of it and I live in an overwhelmingly Muslim majority area so how do you explain that then

Wherever it is that you live does the local neighbourhood mosque broadcast hate propaganda against you into your home

In other words are you in a Muslim majority country

You never originally mentioned Muslim majority country only Muslim majority area which are not the same. However you probably thought you could get away with it but unfortunately I answered the question. Now you have to start moving the
goalposts so as not to admit defeat even though it would be better if you just accepted that you were wrong. You dont win an argument by employing a logical fallacy. But I will answer your goalpost moving question anyway to stop you using this as
a reason to claim you still won the argument : no I dont live in a Muslim majority country
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Re: My Islam Story

#63  Postby Thommo » Jan 27, 2018 8:11 pm

quas wrote:1. Because the religious aspect is boring. Most people are not of the scholarly/nerdy type.
In fact, most people HATE reading.
You now expect them to read in Arabic (which isn't the native language of most Muslims), and you want them to read in Quranic Arabic?

Imagine how difficult it is learning Greek, for most Christians who are not of Greek descent. And you expect them to learn Koine Greek so they would be able to understand the Christian religious text in its original written language.


I'm tempted to ask what the hell you think you're talking about? Are you now contending that since most Christians are not of the scholarly/nerdy type, don't read ancient Greek or Latin and most people hate reading that means Christianity isn't a religion either?

It's hardly news to anyone that most religious views are not derived from personal scholarly study of original holy texts, and that certainly isn't in some way unique to Islam. And if it's pretty well equally true of all religions (which from the criteria you provide it is), then it cannot be a reason why one religion isn't a religion and other religions are religions.

And to be crystal clear, whatever "expectation" and "want" you referred to here, they surely aren't mine. I've been pretty clear that I'm not demanding either Christians study holy texts in Greek or Muslims study holy texts in Arabic, in order that they be considered religious. Contrarily you seem to be demanding some contradictory combination of both and neither.
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Re: My Islam Story

#64  Postby quas » Jan 28, 2018 3:37 am

surreptitious57 wrote:You never originally mentioned Muslim majority country only Muslim majority area which are not the same. However you probably thought you could get away with it but unfortunately I answered the question. Now you have to start moving the goalposts so as not to admit defeat even though it would be better if you just accepted that you were wrong. You dont win an argument by employing a logical fallacy. But I will answer your goalpost moving question anyway to stop you using this as a reason to claim you still won the argument : no I dont live in a Muslim majority country


I understand why you'd think that's moving goalposts. If you have been stationed in various countries, you'd have noticed that Muslims in Muslim-minority countries behave differently than in -majority ones. For starters, the loudspeakers wherever you live probably aren't as loud such that it broadcast through walls into your home, even if home is kilometers away. (In Singapore, a mosque loudspeaker can only be heard if you're within 100 meter of the mosque, even then it's very faint.) Another glaring difference is that they'd probably be less political with regards to local politics. In Indonistan, election campaigns are won through mosques. There is even a political party that specialises in recruitment of members through mosques, Islamic schools and Islamic universities. You know the Hizb ut-Tahrir? It was an Islamic sect that supposedly wanted to kick out the government and replace it with the caliphate. In Indonesia, the local branch of the Hizb ut-Tahrir wanted to do that also. In the previous election campaign, I thought they were going to ask people to boycott the election. But instead, they were actively campaigning AGAINST a certain political candidate, which means that they were getting people to vote for the other political candidate (which means that the local Hiz ut-Tahrir is pro-election, pro-democracy). All because there is a Christian running in the election. It's more important for them to fuck up an infidel than accomplish their ultimate goal of establishing a caliphate.
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Re: My Islam Story

#65  Postby quas » Jan 28, 2018 4:23 am

Thommo wrote:I'm tempted to ask what the hell you think you're talking about? Are you now contending that since most Christians are not of the scholarly/nerdy type, don't read ancient Greek or Latin and most people hate reading that means Christianity isn't a religion either?

It's hardly news to anyone that most religious views are not derived from personal scholarly study of original holy texts, and that certainly isn't in some way unique to Islam. And if it's pretty well equally true of all religions (which from the criteria you provide it is), then it cannot be a reason why one religion isn't a religion and other religions are religions.

And to be crystal clear, whatever "expectation" and "want" you referred to here, they surely aren't mine. I've been pretty clear that I'm not demanding either Christians study holy texts in Greek or Muslims study holy texts in Arabic, in order that they be considered religious. Contrarily you seem to be demanding some contradictory combination of both and neither.


Fair point. On the occasions I've been assigned to churches, I've noticed that most of their activities are not religious-based either. There was a lot of socializing, talking, eating together, travelling together, etc. And the sermons weren't always based on religious texts either, because most people don't find it relevant to their daily life. It's more advice for the daily life such as don't be excessive when you are scolding other people (don't use harsh words), don't be excessive when you are buying and haggling (people need to earn a living), etc. Maybe you could say this is so very much religion since they believed that their religion commanded them to be nice to other people. Well, if that's the case, the religion of Islam is about how they are always being oppressed by the infidels (being killed, tortured, raped—which are mostly fictitious by the way—or just being converted away from Islam, being infected with the LGBT virus, or being brainwashed by the liberals into thinking that a moderate Islam is a good thing or democracy and free speech is a good thing, etc) and how they need to fuck up the infidels.
Basically, it's sado-masochism without the fun toys.

Their religion was basically to grow their community by enforcing tribalism (us-vs-them mentality) —through whatever means necessary. If they themselves were not being oppressed at all, they had to dig up news stories from halfway across the globe about how some random person who happened to be Muslim there was being oppressed somehow. if those stories don't exist, just make it up. This is what I am seeing constantly on my facebook feed.

Now if their religion was actually religious based, it would be always digging up fatwa, digging up hadith, and always Astaghfirullah! Christianity couldn't possibly be compared to this. There isn't much rules about clothes to wear, food to eat, and no mention about what's haram (not allowed) and what's halal (allowed). It's just not that involving as a religion, which means one could be a hardcore religious Christian without going nuts like being a religious Muslim would entail.
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Re: My Islam Story

#66  Postby Cito di Pense » Jan 28, 2018 4:57 am

I don't know how you got yourself stuck living and working in Indonesia if you don't really want to be there. If your job includes keeping tabs on terrorist organisations, you should just shut up about how terrible Islam is and do your job, because that's why you're there. Venting anonymously on an internet forum that isn't specifically anti-Muslim is a recipe for showering yourself with disapprobation. If you're there to do intel work, just do it. In that case, most of your aggravation comes from the fact that your assignment is to dig up the worst you can find about the culture you're investigating. I'm not surprised to hear that the worst you can find about Muslims discovers a lot of bigotry on their part. That's the case with lots of religious fanatics, not just Muslims.

If you're not really an intel operative, and I have no reason to believe you are from anything you've written, you're just a Westerner living in a Muslim-majority society, giving in to stranger-in-a-strange-land dysphoria, so carry on splendidly with your rant.
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Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: My Islam Story

#67  Postby WayOfTheDodo » Jan 28, 2018 6:32 am

quas wrote:
Animavore wrote:By saying Islam is not a religion, it's a way of life, you are buying into the religion's hands. Many practioners of different religions believe that theirs is not a religion (my Born Again Christian friend is like this), that being called a religion turns Truth into merely a belief. So to them all the other religions are rightly called so, because they are false. Things believed like fairy tales, UFOs, Big Foot, and the Loch Ness Monster.

Which is what they are.

I won't give practioners religion of Islam a break by not calling their religion a religion.


I understand you 100%.

But Islam isn't a religion, because if you practice Islam as a religion only, and try to attain as much Islamic knowledge as possible from a solely religious perspective, you -much like the woman in the video- wouldn't stay a Muslim for long.

So because Islam sucks as a religion, it is not a religion?
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Re: My Islam Story

#68  Postby quas » Jan 28, 2018 9:28 am

Cito di Pense wrote:I don't know how you got yourself stuck living and working in Indonesia if you don't really want to be there. If your job includes keeping tabs on terrorist organisations, you should just shut up about how terrible Islam is and do your job, because that's why you're there. Venting anonymously on an internet forum that isn't specifically anti-Muslim is a recipe for showering yourself with disapprobation. If you're there to do intel work, just do it. In that case, most of your aggravation comes from the fact that your assignment is to dig up the worst you can find about the culture you're investigating. I'm not surprised to hear that the worst you can find about Muslims discovers a lot of bigotry on their part. That's the case with lots of religious fanatics, not just Muslims.

If you're not really an intel operative, and I have no reason to believe you are from anything you've written, you're just a Westerner living in a Muslim-majority society, giving in to stranger-in-a-strange-land dysphoria, so carry on splendidly with your rant.


Cito, I feel like writing a thousand word essay to response to you, but work beckons, so I have to make this brief. "I don't know how you got yourself stuck living and working in Indonesia if you don't really want to be there." 1. Life is what happens to you while you are busy making other plans. 2. Maybe I wanted to be here. I don't know. 3. If I could actually choose, I would choose to not be alive in the first place. Life is depressing. Seeing all this hatred and anger on a daily basis takes a toll on you.

What if I told you that I'm a local, because they needed a local operative who knows the local customs and culture like a fish knows water, like Islam knows hatred and anger, like Adam knows Eve. Whatever my background is, I am just someone who has had the rare opportunity to peer into social media networks of thousands of Muslims in a Muslim-majority country which gave me deep insight into what Islam today is, as practiced by modern-day Muslims in a Muslim-majority country. Which could be said of any other Indonistan netizen really. What differentiates me from them is that I am viewing all this from an atheist perspective, and also telling you guys about what I see.

There is something really wrong with the the anti-Islam narrative. It claimed that Islam made people do bad things because it's an inherently violent religion. Whether that's true or not is irrelevant. Most Muslims are not terrorists, so that's a misguided notion that's instantly dismissable for most people with a functioning brain. But they are definitely full of hatred and anger, which do not and could not possibly have come from the religious teachings alone. Because the hatred and anger that I am witnessing is contemporary, it is current and relevant to daily life, fueled and ignited constantly by the latest social media news feed.

I understand why you'd think that I was digging up the worst of them. I am just mostly surprised that the people I know in my daily life. The people that I sit down and had coffee together with, would later on post and share hateful shit against me (not me personally, but my group of people) in their social media accounts. To experience taqiya first hand, oh man!
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Re: My Islam Story

#69  Postby Thommo » Jan 28, 2018 10:04 am

quas wrote:Their religion was basically to grow their community by enforcing tribalism (us-vs-them mentality) —through whatever means necessary. If they themselves were not being oppressed at all, they had to dig up news stories from halfway across the globe about how some random person who happened to be Muslim there was being oppressed somehow. if those stories don't exist, just make it up. This is what I am seeing constantly on my facebook feed.


All religions are entirely made up. They can be nothing other than transmission of cultural values, modes of dress, practices and other forms of tribalism (although, let's be clear, Islam has a number of very different tribes). None of these things have anything to do with whether something is or isn't a a religion.

For whatever reason what you're actually doing is making a claim about Muslims that seems to me to be, in parts, grossly unrepresentative and saying nothing about Islam. Clearly you don't like the Muslims you're dealing with and and feel they comport themselves badly and you see a connection between their behaviour and their religion. Now, I cannot possibly evaluate your story, because it's just a personal anecdote including details like you being a CIA agent who was never recruited by the CIA.

So as far as it goes all I can say is that it doesn't fit all that well with the facts and data I'm familiar with, except to the extent that right now I'm having a conversation with you, who is relating gossip from halfway across the globe about how some random person who happened to be Muslim posted something you don't like to facebook and it makes you quite cross. The similarity between that and the behaviour you're criticisng is striking.
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Re: My Islam Story

#70  Postby quas » Jan 28, 2018 11:12 am

Thommo wrote:All religions are entirely made up. They can be nothing other than transmission of cultural values, modes of dress, practices and other forms of tribalism (although, let's be clear, Islam has a number of very different tribes). None of these things have anything to do with whether something is or isn't a a religion.

But who would made up grievance narrative? Who would possibly do that? Aside from hate groups. Which is why I've been saying that Islam is not a religion and more like a hate group. And it's a very organised hate group, made possible by the pre-existing religious network they already have and the internet and social media network.

If Christianity today was to model itself after Islam, you'd have Christians using their religious network, spreading hate propaganda from church to church, and every single priest/pastor in every single sermon would be preaching against the evils of the non-Christians. Which would be videoed, uploaded to social media, shared and liked by all Christians. Church membership would rise internationally because people would be united by a shared sense of identity (tribalism) feeling that they are constantly under threat from a common enemy that has conspired all global forces against them.

But that's impossible because Christianity isn't that organised. They don't have a local fatwa body that could effectively unite members to kill a single infidel.

For whatever reason what you're actually doing is making a claim about Muslims that seems to me to be, in parts, grossly unrepresentative and saying nothing about Islam. Clearly you don't like the Muslims you're dealing with and and feel they comport themselves badly and you see a connection between their behaviour and their religion. Now, I cannot possibly evaluate your story, because it's just a personal anecdote including details like you being a CIA agent who was never recruited by the CIA.

So as far as it goes all I can say is that it doesn't fit all that well with the facts and data I'm familiar with, except to the extent that right now I'm having a conversation with you, who is relating gossip from halfway across the globe about how some random person who happened to be Muslim posted something you don't like to facebook and it makes you quite cross. The similarity between that and the behaviour you're criticisng is striking.

What I'm telling you is already well-known to those who live in Indonistan or any other Muslim-majority countries.
Here's some supporting news story for you to read:

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/news- ... ake%20news

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/news- ... =indonesia

What happened in Indonistan since the last election have demonstrated how Islam have evolved from religion into socio-political movement.

You said Islam has many tribes? Whatever these tribes are, they can always unite when they want to gang up and fuck up an infidel, and then disperse afterwards, go their own ways, until they find another infidel to gang up on. Which is what happened in Indonistan's previous election. Even the Hizb ut-Tahrir who is anti-democracy would set aside their differences all because they can't pass up the opportunity to fuck up an infidel. http://www.rationalskepticism.org/islam ... l#p2611483
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Re: My Islam Story

#71  Postby Thommo » Jan 28, 2018 11:55 am

Christianity is more organised than Islam, you literally have central authorities like the pope. To say that Islam is a single group is genuinely bizarre. I'm pretty sure that Shias aren't coordinating with Sunnis, we don't need to get to even the level of distinguishing sufis or ahmadis from wahabbists. You don't find a fatwah from the Ayatollah being carried out by any and all Muslims, that's for sure.

If you look at how hate attacks carried out by Islamic extremists have operated in recent years, it's by an almost complete decentralisation, not by acting as a single coordinated hate group. Things have even moved further in that direction with so called "lone wolf" killers resorting to low tech van attacks in preference to suicide bombs.

But again, Islam being a socio-political movement does not mean it's not a religion. Every religion is a socio-political movement, and certainly all the Abrahamic ones have their own version of a grievance narrative.

Anyway, you seem to have ignored the reference to goalposts that was made. I suggest you give it some thought. I've said nothing about whether Islam is good or bad, or whether Islam is being used to propagate values and ideas that I find abhorrent. What I engaged you on were claims that Islam is not a religion and that you were using logical entailment. No amount of lecturing on what you perceive to be the evils of Islam could ever resolve those points.

There's really no point trying to engage me on Indonesian politics, I don't know anything about it and am not going to discuss it.

In the interests of trying to prevent further fracturing of the conversation and the introduction of more tangents, I will say this: Yes, Islam has serious problems right now. It is being used on far too wide a scale to promote hateful ideas and to perpetuate cultural behaviours and values that are actively sexist, hateful and harmful, whether that be forced marriage, suppression of women's rights or genital mutilation. But these are completely separate questions, and they are sensitive enough that they shouldn't be discussed in terms of overgeneralisations, blurred boundaries with other issues and juxtaposed with unrelated issues and statements as though they are one and the same.
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Re: My Islam Story

#72  Postby quas » Jan 28, 2018 12:58 pm

Thommo wrote:Christianity is more organised than Islam, you literally have central authorities like the pope.
But whatever the pope decreed oftentimes go unheeded. Even if the pope says no to contraceptives, most Catholics would still be using birth control.

To say that Islam is a single group is genuinely bizarre. I'm pretty sure that Shias aren't coordinating with Sunnis, we don't need to get to even the level of distinguishing sufis or ahmadis from wahabbists. You don't find a fatwah from the Ayatollah being carried out by any and all Muslims, that's for sure.

Shias are shunned here, there are not too many of them anyway. A Shia has as much chance entering political office as a Christian. That's just how much the Sunni majority hates them. There are ven less Ahmadis. Actually Ahmadis are actively persecuted. Sufis and Wahabbists, both being Sunnis, do gang up against kafir.

If you look at how hate attacks carried out by Islamic extremists have operated in recent years, it's by an almost complete decentralisation, not by acting as a single coordinated hate group. Things have even moved further in that direction with so called "lone wolf" killers resorting to low tech van attacks in preference to suicide bombs.

What've been telling you thus far has no relation to terrorism. Terrorism is a fringe group with very few followers, and should be of no concern to most people.

What should concern most people is the mainstream moderate that are growing rapidly by spreading hate propaganda, and would instantly unite with the hardliners to gang up on the infidels should the opportunity arise. And they would let the hardliners be on the front-lines persecuting the infidels, and after they are done fucking up the infidels, the moderate and the hardliners part ways until they find another opportunity to gang up. just so that afterward the public would think the hardliners are the bad guys and the real Islam gets to maintain its pristine reputation as moderate and peace-loving.

But again, Islam being a socio-political movement does not mean it's not a religion. Every religion is a socio-political movement, and certainly all the Abrahamic ones have their own version of a grievance narrative.

I have been to churches. And the grievance narrative was rarely ever mentioned. If they were being persecuted, they would just pray for divine protection and the strength to endure through. Never had them go like, "We are getting our asses kicked, let's fight back!" Certainly, you do have those fringe groups that do fight back, but those are fringe groups. Even rarer than the Islamic terrorists.

Anyway, you seem to have ignored the reference to goalposts that was made. I suggest you give it some thought. I've said nothing about whether Islam is good or bad, or whether Islam is being used to propagate values and ideas that I find abhorrent. What I engaged you on were claims that Islam is not a religion and that you were using logical entailment. No amount of lecturing on what you perceive to be the evils of Islam could ever resolve those points.

I say they are not a religion because they'd rather be political than be religious. Which is why they are so effective as a political vehicle in Muslim-majority countries. All the differing factions—even the ones that are anti-democracy!—can be united so that a Muslim politcal candidate can win in a democratic election against a Christian candidate.

There's really no point trying to engage me on Indonesian politics, I don't know anything about it and am not going to discuss it.

Thought you wanted me to back up my assertions.
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Re: My Islam Story

#73  Postby LucidFlight » Jan 28, 2018 3:06 pm

I wonder, are their politics based, to some extent, upon their religious beliefs? Is Islam the source of their ideas or is it simply a socio-economic and ideological framework upon which to spread such ideas. Is there some sort of dynamic between the ideas of people and the religion they practise?

/thinking out loud
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Re: My Islam Story

#74  Postby quas » Jan 28, 2018 5:43 pm

LucidFlight wrote:I wonder, are their politics based, to some extent, upon their religious beliefs? Is Islam the source of their ideas or is it simply a socio-economic and ideological framework upon which to spread such ideas. Is there some sort of dynamic between the ideas of people and the religion they practise?

/thinking out loud


I wanted to say that they are self-aware that they are exploiting their own religion for political gains, which would mean that they know that they are lying. But with religious people, especially very religious ones, the truth is, you don't know. It's like the Creationists lying for Jesus. These people are such consummate liars because they believe their own lies such that they become their own lies.

It's can get pretty outrageous, for example this woman was saying that you should vote for a certain political candidate because he is Allah.
http://nasional.kompas.com/read/2014/08 ... Minta.Maaf

At a certain point, she must know that's such a blatant lie, but then again she seems to actually believe what she says?
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Re: My Islam Story

#75  Postby Cito di Pense » Jan 28, 2018 8:21 pm

quas wrote:What differentiates me from them is that I am viewing all this from an atheist perspective, and also telling you guys about what I see.


Your narrative runs something like this, quas: "I've seen and heard shit that would make your blood run cold." Now that the tiny audience you've corralled here has been witness to your hard-earned expertise (not to mention, your atheist perspective), what's next on the agenda?

The first thing we could do, as the song goes, is pin a medal on you for bein' so brave and honest. But that's not what you expect, and anyway, that's not what's going to happen, is it? Even if it did, it's not clear that's really what you're after. I don't think you're going to be satisfied with anyone's recognition of your deathless insights, your brilliant thought processes. I could be wrong.

Suppose I start to believe that Islam is not a religion (at least in one Muslim-majority society for which I have copious anecdotes available to me). What next? The copious anecdotes (and entirely-expected generalizations from them) are unfocused. Nobody else in the tiny audience you've corralled here lives in a Muslim-majority society, as far as I know.

You yourself would get to the point, if you knew what it was. That Islam isn't a religion is not much use as a talking point, as demonstrated by the discussion so far. It's your subjective take on your experience, and the reasons that doesn't translate are outlined in other replies you've gotten. Is your subtext, for example, something to the effect that I shouldn't idly stand by while my society evolves into one with a Muslim majority? If so, just say that plainly and get on with some other business.

quas wrote:The people that I sit down and had coffee together with, would later on post and share hateful shit against me (not me personally, but my group of people) in their social media accounts. To experience taqiya first hand, oh man!


So that's your atheist perspective, then. I have no doubt it is tough being an atheist in a Muslim-majority society. World-changing solutions are not crawling out of the woodwork, are they? You're doing the best you can with your perspective if you are serving as intel-gatherer against hate groups. If, on the other hand, you're not an intel operative, and you're just reflecting on your experience reading social media to an audience in a skeptic forum, don't talk to me about the way people lie in the service of politics.
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Re: My Islam Story

#76  Postby quas » Feb 06, 2018 5:21 pm

So I asked around, and I was told that I need to read this book:

https://www.amazon.com/Hate-Spin-Manufa ... nskepti-20

Anyone has access to this?
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Re: My Islam Story

#77  Postby quas » Mar 13, 2018 7:48 pm

The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem
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Re: My Islam Story

#78  Postby Cito di Pense » Mar 14, 2018 8:45 am



Social media are easily co-opted by people with selfish intentions. This is true all over the world, and it's true because there are so many subscribers: A goodly number of them are bound to be dumb as bread or emotionally impoverished or both. You still have not illustrated how Islam is better at taking advantage of this fact than a lot of other power-hungry social movements, including white supremacy movements in Europe and the US.
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Re: My Islam Story

#79  Postby quas » Mar 18, 2018 10:33 am

Cito di Pense wrote:You still have not illustrated how Islam is better at taking advantage of this fact than a lot of other power-hungry social movements, including white supremacy movements in Europe and the US.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religio ... olf_Hitler
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Re: My Islam Story

#80  Postby SpeedOfSound » Mar 18, 2018 11:25 am

quas wrote:

I know why she left Islam. It's not mentioned in the video.
So let's make this a game, and let's see whether you guys can guess why she left Islam.

wtf? Am I having a stroke? What the fuck language or languages is she speaking?
"Daddy, why did god make YEC's?"
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