My Islam Story

Abrahamic religion, you know, the one with the mosques...

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My Islam Story

#1  Postby quas » Jan 25, 2018 4:59 am



I know why she left Islam. It's not mentioned in the video.
So let's make this a game, and let's see whether you guys can guess why she left Islam.
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem
those who think alike than those who think differently. -Nietzsche
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Re: My Islam Story

#2  Postby Cito di Pense » Jan 25, 2018 8:38 am

What you think you know is not diagnostic of anything. Playing guessing games with you does not make the story more interesting. Staying or leaving inevitably involves personal issues.

That said, it's a very interesting (but enthusiastically personal) account. The question we really want to ask is why anyone stays in Islam, and she has offered no insights of her own about that (because it's a personal account, only about her experience). We already think we know a lot of the answers to that question, and there's nothing in her account that offers further insight.

She almost said something cogent about liberal practitioners, but finally, did not want to go there. It would be true of liberal practitioners of any religion. The fundies just want to get it right. Too bad for them it isn't mathematics.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: My Islam Story

#3  Postby LucidFlight » Jan 25, 2018 8:51 am

Saya tidak tahu. Is it because of bacon?
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Re: My Islam Story

#4  Postby quas » Jan 25, 2018 9:36 am

Cito di Pense wrote:What you think you know is not diagnostic of anything. Playing guessing games with you does not make the story more interesting. Staying or leaving inevitably involves personal issues.

That's especially true when the religion involved is Islam. There's just something about Islam that makes it different than any other religion on this planet. In fact, unlike any other religion, Islam isn't a religion. This is especially true considering how it is practiced by most people these days. I would say she left Islam because she attempted to practice it as a religion.

That said, it's a very interesting (but enthusiastically personal) account. The question we really want to ask is why anyone stays in Islam, and she has offered no insights of her own about that (because it's a personal account, only about her experience). We already think we know a lot of the answers to that question, and there's nothing in her account that offers further insight.

There are many reasons why she quit. One of the main ones being her frustrations at being unable to gain approval from within her own community. She was too hardcore for them. Had she been surrounded by the more hardcore types, there's a good chance she would have stayed.

She almost said something cogent about liberal practitioners, but finally, did not want to go there.

Because the blasphemy law is still in full effect in Indonistan, she had to censor herself a lot. She started the video with the disclaimer that she is not making the video to influence anyone, because the blasphemy law specifically warns against "influencing" people to leave their religion. She is a Canadian citizen, I don't think they could jail her, lest they risk starting an international incident. Still, she has to be careful, because there are more dangerous things to worry about than the official legal system of Indonistan.

It would be true of liberal practitioners of any religion. The fundies just want to get it right. Too bad for them it isn't mathematics.

Getting it right is the easy part, but to practice it 24/7 daily knowing full well that it goes against everything in this world. That constant inner conflict is not easy for the digestive system, to say the least. I mean, when you are so stressed all the time, you are bound to be constipated. And... constipated folks are more miserable than suicidal ones.
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those who think alike than those who think differently. -Nietzsche
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Re: My Islam Story

#5  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Jan 25, 2018 9:52 am

quas wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:What you think you know is not diagnostic of anything. Playing guessing games with you does not make the story more interesting. Staying or leaving inevitably involves personal issues.

That's especially true when the religion involved is Islam. There's just something about Islam that makes it different than any other religion on this planet. In fact, unlike any other religion, Islam isn't a religion. This is especially true considering how it is practiced by most people these days. I would say she left Islam because she attempted to practice it as a religion.

Can you provide evidence for those claims?
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: My Islam Story

#6  Postby quas » Jan 25, 2018 10:11 am

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
quas wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:What you think you know is not diagnostic of anything. Playing guessing games with you does not make the story more interesting. [i]
That's especially true when the religion involved is Islam. There's just something about Islam that makes it different than any other religion on this planet. In fact, unlike any other religion, Islam isn't a religion. This is especially true considering how it is practiced by most people these days. I would say she left Islam because she attempted to practice it as a religion.

Can you provide evidence for those claims?


Of course, but first you have to guess what I mean by "Islam is not a religion".

To help you guess, I think the previous post probably could do with a minor correction. Instead of saying "staying or leaving inevitably involves personal issues", it's more apt to say that, when it comes to Islam, staying or leaving may involve issues greater than personal.
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Re: My Islam Story

#7  Postby Cito di Pense » Jan 25, 2018 10:45 am

quas wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
quas wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:What you think you know is not diagnostic of anything. Playing guessing games with you does not make the story more interesting. [i]
That's especially true when the religion involved is Islam. There's just something about Islam that makes it different than any other religion on this planet. In fact, unlike any other religion, Islam isn't a religion. This is especially true considering how it is practiced by most people these days. I would say she left Islam because she attempted to practice it as a religion.

Can you provide evidence for those claims?


Of course, but first you have to guess what I mean by "Islam is not a religion".

To help you guess, I think the previous post probably could do with a minor correction. Instead of saying "staying or leaving inevitably involves personal issues", it's more apt to say that, when it comes to Islam, staying or leaving may involve issues greater than personal.


Well, if some people stay and some people leave, that suggests the issues are personal ones. You could certainly say that some people treat Islam as more than a religion, but other religions have rules about food and clothing, too. For the people who observe the dietary rules and dress code, it's undetermined whether they do it because they think they might be worrying god, or whether they are just concerned about worrying their fellow congregants. If your ambition is to make grand generalisations, try physics.

It's true that Islam has attracted rule-makers that like to make lots and lots of rules. This tends to snowball by attracting people with religious fetishes and OCD at the same time. This is not unheard of in other religions, either.

quas wrote:Had she been surrounded by the more hardcore types, there's a good chance she would have stayed.


That's a quintessentially personal issue involving how one responds to social pressure. This is the story of someone who attempted to integrate, and not of someone who attempted to escape. Try to find the anecdote of someone who finds being immersed in Islamic culture impossible to overcome. That should be easy for you.
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Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: My Islam Story

#8  Postby zulumoose » Jan 25, 2018 10:58 am

first you have to guess what I mean by "Islam is not a religion"


I think you most likely mean that Islam is a community and a way of life. If believed strictly it is cult-like and influences every aspect of daily life to the point of immersion. Other religions are typically part-time or cultural aspects of peoples lives, not the defining feature of who they are.
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Re: My Islam Story

#9  Postby Cito di Pense » Jan 25, 2018 11:03 am

zulumoose wrote:
first you have to guess what I mean by "Islam is not a religion"


I think you most likely mean that Islam is a community and a way of life. If believed strictly it is cult-like and influences every aspect of daily life to the point of immersion. Other religions are typically part-time or cultural aspects of peoples lives, not the defining feature of who they are.


For some people, so is Mormonism. The trick here is that it's not a state religion (yet), unless the state you live in is Utah. Not. You can still live in Utah and ignore Mormonism for the most part. Making sweeping generalisations about this or that religious system is tempting. Imagine writing the book that proves Islam is a pox upon humanity. Your fame would spread far and wide!
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: My Islam Story

#10  Postby quas » Jan 25, 2018 11:38 am

Cito di Pense wrote:Well, if some people stay and some people leave, that suggests the issues are personal ones. You could certainly say that some people treat Islam as more than a religion, but other religions have rules about food and clothing, too. For the people who observe the dietary rules and dress code, it's undetermined whether they do it because they think they might be worrying god, or whether they are just concerned about worrying their fellow congregants. If your ambition is to make grand generalisations, try physics.

It's true that Islam has attracted rule-makers that like to make lots and lots of rules. This tends to snowball by attracting people with religious fetishes and OCD at the same time. This is not unheard of in other religions, either.


I don't dispute that at all.
It's just that... to say that Islam is a super-immersive religion is to say that it's a religion, albeit a super-immersive one.
And, I've already said it's so much more than a religion and so unlike any other religion, that it's not religion.
So guess again!

That's a quintessentially personal issue involving how one responds to social pressure. This is the story of someone who attempted to integrate, and not of someone who attempted to escape.

She didn't join Islam so she could "integrate". It's not like she is a CIA or KGB agent sent into foreign soil, and tasked to assimilate, soaked up the local culture as much as possible, blend in... so she could be a more effective undercover intelligence operative. (She is Canadian, and there's no CIA or KGB there, guys!)

She is just a tourist backpacker who visited Indonistan, decided to stay because she liked the local people, encountered Islam (because the locals were mostly Muslims), joined out of curiosity and got sucked in. Which also happened to be the perfect cover story for a CIA operative sent to infiltrate the South East Asian branch of Al Qaeda, Jemaah Islamiyah, which happened to have an active base in Indonistan. Having said that, now that she has outed herself, compromising her cover, I guess she must have failed her secret mission, and we are to believe that she is just this planet's most boring private citizen this whole time. Anyway, all I'm trying to say is, because she didn't try to integrate/assimilate into the local culture vis-a-vis Islam (being the incompetent secret agent that she is/was), she never joined Islam the right way. Which is, to not treat it as a religion in the first place. And that's why she was able to get out from the clutches of Islam.

Try to find the anecdote of someone who finds being immersed in Islamic culture impossible to overcome. That should be easy for you.

Can't speak from personal experience, since I was never recruited by the CIA.
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Re: My Islam Story

#11  Postby Animavore » Jan 25, 2018 12:18 pm

By saying Islam is not a religion, it's a way of life, you are buying into the religion's hands. Many practioners of different religions believe that theirs is not a religion (my Born Again Christian friend is like this), that being called a religion turns Truth into merely a belief. So to them all the other religions are rightly called so, because they are false. Things believed like fairy tales, UFOs, Big Foot, and the Loch Ness Monster.

Which is what they are.

I won't give practioners religion of Islam a break by not calling their religion a religion.
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Re: My Islam Story

#12  Postby quas » Jan 25, 2018 12:32 pm

Animavore wrote:By saying Islam is not a religion, it's a way of life, you are buying into the religion's hands. Many practioners of different religions believe that theirs is not a religion (my Born Again Christian friend is like this), that being called a religion turns Truth into merely a belief. So to them all the other religions are rightly called so, because they are false. Things believed like fairy tales, UFOs, Big Foot, and the Loch Ness Monster.

Which is what they are.

I won't give practioners religion of Islam a break by not calling their religion a religion.


I understand you 100%.

But Islam isn't a religion, because if you practice Islam as a religion only, and try to attain as much Islamic knowledge as possible from a solely religious perspective, you -much like the woman in the video- wouldn't stay a Muslim for long.
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Re: My Islam Story

#13  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Jan 26, 2018 9:59 am

quas wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
quas wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:What you think you know is not diagnostic of anything. Playing guessing games with you does not make the story more interesting. [i]
That's especially true when the religion involved is Islam. There's just something about Islam that makes it different than any other religion on this planet. In fact, unlike any other religion, Islam isn't a religion. This is especially true considering how it is practiced by most people these days. I would say she left Islam because she attempted to practice it as a religion.

Can you provide evidence for those claims?


Of course, but first you have to guess what I mean by "Islam is not a religion".

No, that'd be your burden, as it is your claim.
That is, presuming you're actually interested in honest and rational discussion.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: My Islam Story

#14  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Jan 26, 2018 10:00 am

zulumoose wrote:
first you have to guess what I mean by "Islam is not a religion"


I think you most likely mean that Islam is a community and a way of life. If believed strictly it is cult-like and influences every aspect of daily life to the point of immersion. Other religions are typically part-time or cultural aspects of peoples lives, not the defining feature of who they are.

Can you provide evidence for that claim? Because the Christian bible belts in multiple countries seem to suggest otherwise.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: My Islam Story

#15  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Jan 26, 2018 10:02 am

quas wrote:
Animavore wrote:By saying Islam is not a religion, it's a way of life, you are buying into the religion's hands. Many practioners of different religions believe that theirs is not a religion (my Born Again Christian friend is like this), that being called a religion turns Truth into merely a belief. So to them all the other religions are rightly called so, because they are false. Things believed like fairy tales, UFOs, Big Foot, and the Loch Ness Monster.

Which is what they are.

I won't give practioners religion of Islam a break by not calling their religion a religion.


I understand you 100%.

But Islam isn't a religion, because if you practice Islam as a religion only, and try to attain as much Islamic knowledge as possible from a solely religious perspective, you -much like the woman in the video- wouldn't stay a Muslim for long.

Then you're employing an incredibly idiosyncratic definition of religion.
Exactly how does what you describe above prevent Islam from being a religion?
Also, how does the same not apply to fundamentalist Christian denominations?
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: My Islam Story

#16  Postby zulumoose » Jan 26, 2018 10:16 am

Can you provide evidence for that claim? Because the Christian bible belts in multiple countries seem to suggest otherwise.


It is a general claim, one other religion in specific areas does not make a dent in it. I would submit that the vast majority of Christians live the vast majority of their life in ways not distinguishable from their non-religious peers, except for church attendance and get-togethers. They dress, eat, work, and usually socialise without noticeable religious influence, even marrying without forced religious compatibility. In short Christians are generally not fanatical, religion is elevator music in their life, not their theme song.
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Re: My Islam Story

#17  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Jan 26, 2018 11:09 am

zulumoose wrote:
Can you provide evidence for that claim? Because the Christian bible belts in multiple countries seem to suggest otherwise.


It is a general claim, one other religion in specific areas does not make a dent in it.

It does if your general claim explicitely excludes it from similar topics.
You can't say X is not Y, because Y is never a way of life, when there are many examples of Y being a way of life.

zulumoose wrote: I would submit that the vast majority of Christians live the vast majority of their life in ways not distinguishable from their non-religious peers, except for church attendance and get-togethers.

And how does that change the fact of whether Christianity is a religion or not?

zulumoose wrote: They dress, eat, work, and usually socialise without noticeable religious influence, even marrying without forced religious compatibility. In short Christians are generally not fanatical, religion is elevator music in their life, not their theme song.

Again, how does that make Islam not a religion?
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: My Islam Story

#18  Postby zulumoose » Jan 26, 2018 11:49 am

Oh FFS, really?

You can't say X is not Y, because Y is never a way of life, when there are many examples of Y being a way of life.


NEVER??? I used the word "typically", how is that an absolute?

And how does that change the fact of whether Christianity is a religion or not?

I made no claims about what a religion is, I was guessing as to why SOMEONE ELSE classified ISLAM differently.

Again, how does that make Islam not a religion?

Again, that is not my claim.
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Re: My Islam Story

#19  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Jan 26, 2018 11:57 am

zulumoose wrote:Oh FFS, really?

You can't say X is not Y, because Y is never a way of life, when there are many examples of Y being a way of life.


NEVER??? I used the word "typically", how is that an absolute?

It isn't. But when you say X cannot be Y, you must use a qualifier that is absolute to make that distinction. Otherwise you cannot claim that X cannot be Y.

zulumoose wrote:
And how does that change the fact of whether Christianity is a religion or not?

I made no claims about what a religion is, I was guessing as to why SOMEONE ELSE classified ISLAM differently.

Fair enough, my bad.

zulumoose wrote:
Again, how does that make Islam not a religion?

Again, that is not my claim.

You seemed to play devil's advocate for quas, hence my questions.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: My Islam Story

#20  Postby zulumoose » Jan 26, 2018 12:00 pm

when you say X cannot be Y, you must use a qualifier that is absolute to make that distinction.


Please point out what I said that you are equating to X cannot be Y?
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