In behavior what is the difference? In belief what is the difference? The men may dress differently but they insist that their women dress pretty much the same. They treat their women as things owned and not people. They each claim to know "God's" mind, and share many holy places.

They share the same Old Testament prophets, and share the same Old Testament stories/myths.

While orthodox Jews mumble and nod their heads at a stone wall, above them fundamental Muslims nod their heads and mumble at the floor in the direction of Mecca.

Nope, I got nothing.

There's very little difference imho, and I often wonder the same.

In fact I often call them Orthodox Muslims to highlight the similarity.

Also, why do Orthodox Muslims claim to forbid idolatry, but behave in a totally idolatry manner?

One main difference though: the fundamentalist Muslims want all the world to convert, the ultra-orthodox Jews want the world to leave them alone.

I have no idea how common honour killings are among strongly religious Muslims, it may be that those are more common in some kind of not-quite-as-strongly-religious grouping (the logic behind why that could be the case requires some explanation, but imho isn't entirely impossible). I haven't heard of a single honour killing committed by Jews (but I have heard of Christian honour killings). Certainly there may have occurred Jewish honour killings as well, but they are more clearly forbidden by Jewish religious law (the thing the orthodox try to impose on other Jews), than they are forbidden by Islamic law afaict.

I think one thing that might have made Jews way less likely to commit those is their rather tighter nature of Jewish communities in the Arab world (compared to the Muslim community), where loss of a woman - even a "slut" - would be detrimental to the community as a whole. Meanwhile, in Europe the Jewish communities didn't have the same honour-culture around them, and so never had that the cultural pressure around them to kill "sluts".

Zwaarddijk wrote:One main difference though: the fundamentalist Muslims want all the world to convert, the ultra-orthodox Jews want the world to leave them alone.

Doesn't make a difference for the people born inside these communities.

Oh, and it also doesn't hold true any more if you happen to live in a neighbourhood that fundamentalists choose as their new breeding ground.

barking mad the lot of them.

Zwaarddijk wrote:One main difference though: the fundamentalist Muslims want all the world to convert, the ultra-orthodox Jews want the world to leave them alone.

From what I've seen/read Orthodox Jew's want to tell everyone that they come in contact with how to act/dress/live. They want the secular state of Israel to bow to their religious beliefs and if they have their way Israel will be a theocratic state indistinguishable from Muslim theocratic states.

I have no idea how common honour killings are among strongly religious Muslims, it may be that those are more common in some kind of not-quite-as-strongly-religious grouping (the logic behind why that could be the case requires some explanation, but imho isn't entirely impossible). I haven't heard of a single honour killing committed by Jews (but I have heard of Christian honour killings). Certainly there may have occurred Jewish honour killings as well, but they are more clearly forbidden by Jewish religious law (the thing the orthodox try to impose on other Jews), than they are forbidden by Islamic law afaict.

I think one thing that might have made Jews way less likely to commit those is their rather tighter nature of Jewish communities in the Arab world (compared to the Muslim community), where loss of a woman - even a "slut" - would be detrimental to the community as a whole. Meanwhile, in Europe the Jewish communities didn't have the same honour-culture around them, and so never had that the cultural pressure around them to kill "sluts".

I didn't mention honor killings, but since you brought it up, and say that Jews want to keep the sluts instead of kill them. What do you think happens to an Orthodox Jewish woman that doesn't want to be married or follow the faith strictly any longer?



Orthodox Jews spit on women in the street that are not dressed the way that would like. They spit on women that ride public buses but won't sit in the back. Grown men spit on little girls walking to school because they are going to school. How are they significantly different than fundamental Muslims?

Oldskeptic wrote:

Zwaarddijk wrote:One main difference though: the fundamentalist Muslims want all the world to convert, the ultra-orthodox Jews want the world to leave them alone.

From what I've seen/read Orthodox Jew's want to tell everyone that they come in contact with how to act/dress/live. They want the secular state of Israel to bow to their religious beliefs and if they have their way Israel will be a theocratic state indistinguishable from Muslim theocratic states.

No, they want that for people that are Jewish - regardless of how observant/religious the Jewish person wants to be or even regardless of if that person identifies as Jewish (so basically, they'll consider anyone whose mother's mother's .... mother was a Jew (but not e.g. mother's mother's father's mother)

I didn't mention honor killings, but since you brought it up, and say that Jews want to keep the sluts instead of kill them. What do you think happens to an Orthodox Jewish woman that doesn't want to be married or follow the faith strictly any longer?

I said historically that's been the better strategy for Jews, I think they may be in a situation now (e.g. there's a state with a rather large Jewish population, etc), where the orthodox may soon develop the idea that honor killings may be a good idea. AFAICT, this hasn't happened yet - but alas, some voices are kind of starting to advocate it so it may just be a question of time.

Zwaarddijk wrote:One main difference though: the fundamentalist Muslims want all the world to convert, the ultra-orthodox Jews want the world to leave them alone.

Yes, it's a bit unfair to compare jewish nuts to muslim nuts, one exclusive the other universal in it's desire for misery.

HomerJay wrote:

Zwaarddijk wrote:One main difference though: the fundamentalist Muslims want all the world to convert, the ultra-orthodox Jews want the world to leave them alone.

Yes, it's a bit unfair to compare jewish nuts to muslim nuts, one exclusive the other universal in it's desire for misery.

My opinion is that the main difference between Islamic nuts and ultra orthodox Jewish nuts is in numbers of nuts.

If ultra orthodox Jews just want to left alone then why are they trying to make all of Israel into an orthodox state that follows Jewish religious law?

If I remember right most if not all orthodox Jews don't even recognize the legitimacy of the the government that protects them and suckles them with welfare benefits while most of the men spend their time nodding their heads over scripture in the hope of learning something.

Less religious and secular Jews are sending their kids to schools that teach them real subjects. But some orthodox Jews have taken it upon themselves to spit on these children as they are walking to school, and threaten them with violence.

Oldskeptic wrote:

HomerJay wrote:

Zwaarddijk wrote:One main difference though: the fundamentalist Muslims want all the world to convert, the ultra-orthodox Jews want the world to leave them alone.

Yes, it's a bit unfair to compare jewish nuts to muslim nuts, one exclusive the other universal in it's desire for misery.

My opinion is that the main difference between Islamic nuts and ultra orthodox Jewish nuts is in numbers of nuts.

If ultra orthodox Jews just want to left alone then why are they trying to make all of Israel into an orthodox state that follows Jewish religious law?

I think you have misunderstood Zwaarddijk's point. The Orthodox jews want all JEWS to be orthodox, so they want the state of Israel to enshrine that. But they have no program of evangelism towards the wider world whatsoever. On the contrary, one of the main points of judaism, particularly of the orthodox variety, is it's exclusivity. There's not much point being the "chosen people" if everyone else is chosen as well. Kind of makes a mockery of the notion of choosing...

By contrast fundamentalist muslims are well known for wanting all of humanity to convert to islam, and for being prepared to inflict violence and terror to that end. There is nothing in the Koran or Islam generally to the effect that a particular group of people are innately "special". Muslims are superior, but only by virtue of having the "right" religion. Anyone can convert to that religion (and is encouraged/threatened to do so), and be equally superior.

Zwaarddijk is certainly historically and theologically correct about this difference. You seem to be objecting to it because you don't want orthodox jews to seem any "better" than fundamentalist muslims. But your question was not whether they are better. Your question was how are they different. So one such difference has been pointed out. I don't see it as meaning that Zwaarddijk thinks orthodox jews are particularly great people.