Preacher claims to have photos of heaven

Shrunk · #1 by **Shrunk** » Apr 02, 2016 4:09 pm

A South African preacher has been roundly mocked online after reportedly charging followers to view his photos of "heaven."

Paseka Motsoeneng, a self-styled prophet, claims a track record of amazing feats.

As the leader of the Church of Incredible Happenings, he's says he's healed people during sermons and even once claimed to deliver a fish from the womb of a pregnant woman.

But Motsoeneng, popularly known as "Prophet Mboro", may have gone a bit too far with his latest otherworldly boast.

A South African news site quoted a church spokesperson on 30 March saying that "the prophet did go to heaven" during an Easter church service and that while there "he took pictures" using his smartphone.

Those eager to see photographic proof of the afterlife will have to open their wallets though. Mboro has asked those who wish to view the pictures for a donation of 5,000 rand (about £240 or $340)....

http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-35944680

Hobbes Choice · #2 by **Hobbes Choice** » Apr 02, 2016 4:15 pm

So what's at issue here?

Surely he is doing more obviously what all religions are doing with more subtelty.

Shrunk · #3 by **Shrunk** » Apr 02, 2016 4:17 pm

Hobbes Choice wrote:So what's at issue here?

Surely he is doing more obviously what all religions are doing with more subtelty.

If he makes money off this, that is the issue.

chairman bill · #4 by **chairman bill** » Apr 02, 2016 4:18 pm

It's a scam, but no more a scam than the collection plate doing the rounds after a Sunday service. Which is still a scam.

Shrunk · #5 by **Shrunk** » Apr 02, 2016 4:23 pm

chairman bill wrote:It's a scam, but no more a scam than the collection plate doing the rounds after a Sunday service. Which is still a scam.

I don't see how that's the case, if the money is put towards what the church says it will be. Whereas charging money for pictures of heaven that are actually pictures of something else is fraudulent.

chairman bill · #6 by **chairman bill** » Apr 02, 2016 4:26 pm

People put money in collection plates because they're sold a lie about God & Jesus & Heaven 'n' Hell. That's a scam. A slighty different scam, but still a scam. This bloke is selling lies about Heaven.

sdelsolray · #7 by **sdelsolray** » Apr 02, 2016 4:56 pm

Lying scammer lies, and scams.

Hobbes Choice · #8 by **Hobbes Choice** » Apr 02, 2016 5:53 pm

Shrunk wrote:
Hobbes Choice wrote:So what's at issue here?

Surely he is doing more obviously what all religions are doing with more subtelty.

If he makes money off this, that is the issue.

So do all the churches of the world by telling lies. So is why are they not getting a storm of abuse from social media?
Is it okay for churches to tell lies because some of the establishment believe some of it?

Shrunk · #9 by **Shrunk** » Apr 02, 2016 7:03 pm

chairman bill wrote:People put money in collection plates because they're sold a lie about God & Jesus & Heaven 'n' Hell. That's a scam. A slighty different scam, but still a scam. This bloke is selling lies about Heaven.

That's not a lie. It's an assertion that is believed without supporting evidence.

Shrunk · **#10** by **Shrunk** » Apr 02, 2016 7:04 pm

Hobbes Choice wrote:
Shrunk wrote:
Hobbes Choice wrote:So what's at issue here?

Surely he is doing more obviously what all religions are doing with more subtelty.

If he makes money off this, that is the issue.

So do all the churches of the world by telling lies. So is why are they not getting a storm of abuse from social media?
Is it okay for churches to tell lies because some of the establishment believe some of it?

See above. I can elaborate on the distinction if you need me to.

tuco · **#11** by **tuco** » Apr 02, 2016 7:08 pm

Shrunk wrote:
chairman bill wrote:People put money in collection plates because they're sold a lie about God & Jesus & Heaven 'n' Hell. That's a scam. A slighty different scam, but still a scam. This bloke is selling lies about Heaven.

That's not a lie. It's an assertion that is believed without supporting evidence.

From legal point of view? IMO this should be classified as fraud in legal sense.

Shrunk · **#12** by **Shrunk** » Apr 02, 2016 7:11 pm

tuco wrote:
Shrunk wrote:
chairman bill wrote:People put money in collection plates because they're sold a lie about God & Jesus & Heaven 'n' Hell. That's a scam. A slighty different scam, but still a scam. This bloke is selling lies about Heaven.

That's not a lie. It's an assertion that is believed without supporting evidence.

From legal point of view? IMO this should be classified as fraud in legal sense.

The guy selling photos of heaven? That's fraud, assuming they're not of heaven and he knows they're not. The collection plate is only fraud if they are knowingly misrepresenting what the money will be used for. Sorry for being unclear.

tuco · **#13** by **tuco** » Apr 02, 2016 7:16 pm

Indeed, assuming. If taken to court, where he was to prove his case, I do not think he could. I would even go as far as applying same standards to tarot reading and all kinds of faith healers etc. But it is not so.

Alan B · **#14** by **Alan B** » Apr 02, 2016 7:25 pm

Since when is a knowingly false assertion not a lie?

Now, if the collection plate proceeds were all used for charity work with zero going to church and clerical upkeep, then yes, that would be OK.
But in all likely-hood, the proceeds will find its way into the pockets of church and staff thereby supporting the false assertion that a deity exists.

Shrunk · **#15** by **Shrunk** » Apr 02, 2016 7:31 pm

Alan B wrote:Since when is a knowingly false assertion not a lie?

Now, if the collection plate proceeds were all used for charity work with zero going to church and clerical upkeep, then yes, that would be OK.
But in all likely-hood, the proceeds will find its way into the pockets of church and staff thereby supporting the false assertion that a deity exists.

If they say "None of this money will be used for church expenses, including salaries," then, yes, that would be fraud. I don't believe that is the understanding people have when putting money in the collection plate, though, is it?

That last bit, about supporting the false assertion that a deity exists, is a non sequitur. The church and the congregation have both come to the belief that a particular god exists, for whatever reason. That's not fraud, just poor critical thinking.

Caper · **#16** by **Caper** » Apr 02, 2016 9:08 pm

Shrunk wrote:
Alan B wrote:Since when is a knowingly false assertion not a lie?

Now, if the collection plate proceeds were all used for charity work with zero going to church and clerical upkeep, then yes, that would be OK.
But in all likely-hood, the proceeds will find its way into the pockets of church and staff thereby supporting the false assertion that a deity exists.

If they say "None of this money will be used for church expenses, including salaries," then, yes, that would be fraud. I don't believe that is the understanding people have when putting money in the collection plate, though, is it?

That last bit, about supporting the false assertion that a deity exists, is a non sequitur. The church and the congregation have both come to the belief that a particular god exists, for whatever reason. That's not fraud, just poor critical thinking.

Nothing to do with the existence of god.
The church leaders are claiming to be god's deputy, and they know all about god - that's a lie.
(That's what we should be pointing out, rather than getting involved with the "god's existence"debate, IMO.)

Shrunk · **#17** by **Shrunk** » Apr 02, 2016 11:20 pm

Caper wrote:Nothing to do with the existence of god.
The church leaders are claiming to be god's deputy, and they know all about god - that's a lie.
(That's what we should be pointing out, rather than getting involved with the "god's existence"debate, IMO.)

They're making a claim that they believe to be true. No matter how poorly supported that claim is, that does not make it a lie.

Those theists who are always asking atheists for proof that God does not exist would love some of the responses in this thread.

Rachel Bronwyn · **#18** by **Rachel Bronwyn** » Apr 03, 2016 3:17 am

I haven't been to church in a while but I fully understood the contents of the collection plate would go into the physical church, usually covering costs of upkeep. No one thought it would feed starving children in the Third World back on my church-going day.

Alan B · **#19** by **Alan B** » Apr 03, 2016 8:39 am

The Thinking Catholic

SOME CATHOLIC PRIESTS ARE ATHEISTS - SOME NEVER PRAY

BBC

UK The vicars who don't believe in God

So how many more of these lying clergy are hiding under their cassocks taking money off the faithful gullible?

Briton · **#20** by **Briton** » Apr 03, 2016 8:51 am

Then there's the Clergy Project for atheist American pastors. http://clergyproject.org/

Preacher claims to have photos of heaven

Preacher claims to have photos of heaven

Ads by Google

Re: Preacher claims to have photos of heaven

Re: Preacher claims to have photos of heaven

Re: Preacher claims to have photos of heaven

Re: Preacher claims to have photos of heaven

Re: Preacher claims to have photos of heaven

Re: Preacher claims to have photos of heaven

Ads by Google

Re: Preacher claims to have photos of heaven

Re: Preacher claims to have photos of heaven

Re: Preacher claims to have photos of heaven

Re: Preacher claims to have photos of heaven

Re: Preacher claims to have photos of heaven

Re: Preacher claims to have photos of heaven

Re: Preacher claims to have photos of heaven

Re: Preacher claims to have photos of heaven

Ads by Google

Re: Preacher claims to have photos of heaven

Re: Preacher claims to have photos of heaven

Re: Preacher claims to have photos of heaven

Re: Preacher claims to have photos of heaven

Re: Preacher claims to have photos of heaven

Who is online