Religion and race

Christianity, Islam, Other Religions & Belief Systems.

Moderators: Blip, DarthHelmet86

Religion and race

#1  Postby Alan C » Jul 30, 2019 3:26 am

I thought about adding this into the discussion going on about the 12 Israeli teens but figured that might be too much of a derail.

I think there is a point of contention when it comes to race and religion. How does this work when it comes to Jews? It seems to me that Jew is considered a race as well as a religion. Therefore when there is criticism, often towards the Israeli ruling parties and the military for some of the demonstrably fuckwitted actions they take, the person making such criticisms are sometimes labelled as racists as well as anti-semites.
A related consideration is when I see someone labelling another person hating on muslims as racist, isn't islam actually a religion that counts adherents from a wide variety of nationalities and ethnicities? I realise that often it is brown-skinned muslims that are getting targeted with unwarranted hate but what about when said labelling is applied to someone critiquing silly or even reprehensible islamic doctrines that an adherent follows?
Lose it - it means go crazy, nuts, insane, bonzo, no longer in possession of one's faculties, three fries short of a happy meal, WACKO!! - Jack O'Neill
User avatar
Alan C
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 2200
Age: 43
Male

New Zealand (nz)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Religion and race

#2  Postby Hermit » Jul 30, 2019 4:10 am

Alan C wrote:I think there is a point of contention when it comes to race and religion.

Trying to associate race with religion is not contentious. It is a mark of supreme idiocy borne of ignorance. Even if we water the meaning of the mythical human races down to denote ethnicities, it makes no sense at all. To begin with, most Jews are not Semites. Also, most Muslims are not Arabs. I have not looked up where all the Christians come from, but it would not surprise me if it turned out that most of them were not Caucasian.
God is the mysterious veil under which we hide our ignorance of the cause. - Léo Errera


God created the universe
God just exists
User avatar
Hermit
 
Posts: 3576
Age: 66
Male

Print view this post

Re: Religion and race

#3  Postby Keep It Real » Jul 30, 2019 5:14 am

Alan C wrote:I think there is a point of contention when it comes to race and religion. How does this work when it comes to Jews? It seems to me that Jew is considered a race as well as a religion.


There's this thing whereby it is said being a Jew is genetically transmissible, because if your mother was a Jew, then you're a Jew, like it or not. This is a beyond unhelpful state of affairs IMO. So much trouble in the world :whistle:
Arthur : All my life I've had this strange feeling that there's something big and sinister going on in the world. Slartibartfast : No, that's perfectly normal paranoia.
User avatar
Keep It Real
 
Posts: 9035
Age: 38
Male

England (eng)
Print view this post

Re: Religion and race

#4  Postby Ironclad » Jul 30, 2019 5:52 am

Many many years ago we had a conversation here that went like this:
"But Jewish isn't a race"
"Try telling them that"
For Van Youngman - see you amongst the stardust, old buddy

"If there was no such thing as science, you'd be right " - Sean Lock

"God ....an inventive destroyer" - Broks
User avatar
Ironclad
RS Donator
 
Name: Nudge-Nudge
Posts: 23437
Age: 51
Male

Country: Wink-Wink
Indonesia (id)
Print view this post

Re: Religion and race

#5  Postby Animavore » Jul 30, 2019 6:15 am

Jews can't catch a break. The KKK and Nazis certainly see them as a race. A lot of POCs interested in social justice see them as white. I've seen both Jerry Seinfeld and Ben Shapiro attacked as angry white men reacting because their privilege is being called into question. The latter was viciously attacked by white supremacists previously for criticising Trump.
A most evolved electron.
User avatar
Animavore
 
Name: The Scribbler
Posts: 43625
Age: 41
Male

Ireland (ie)
Print view this post

Re: Religion and race

#6  Postby Svartalf » Jul 30, 2019 9:09 am

Ironclad wrote:Many many years ago we had a conversation here that went like this:
"But Jewish isn't a race"
"Try telling them that"

Jews are a race, or Sephardim would admit that ashkenazim are proper jews.
PC stands for Patronizing Cocksucker Randy Ping

Embrace the Dark Side, it needs a hug
User avatar
Svartalf
 
Posts: 1920
Age: 50
Male

Country: France
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: Religion and race

#7  Postby Hermit » Jul 30, 2019 9:58 am

Svartalf wrote:
Ironclad wrote:Many many years ago we had a conversation here that went like this:
"But Jewish isn't a race"
"Try telling them that"

Jews are a race, or Sephardim would admit that ashkenazim are proper jews.

Reference to the "No True Scotsman" fallacy duly noted.

In other words, any attempt to justify the existence of race on a fallacy is bound to be ... um ... fallacious.
God is the mysterious veil under which we hide our ignorance of the cause. - Léo Errera


God created the universe
God just exists
User avatar
Hermit
 
Posts: 3576
Age: 66
Male

Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Religion and race

#8  Postby Alan B » Jul 30, 2019 8:28 pm

There's only one race - the Human Race...
Carved up by the illusions of religion and sovereignty.
I have NO BELIEF in the existence of a God or gods. I do not have to offer evidence nor do I have to determine absence of evidence because I do not ASSERT that a God does or does not or gods do or do not exist.
User avatar
Alan B
 
Posts: 9894
Age: 83
Male

Country: UK (Birmingham)
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Religion and race

#9  Postby Alan C » Jul 30, 2019 9:42 pm

Don't, for example, Eastern European and Russian Jews mess up the notion of race?
Lose it - it means go crazy, nuts, insane, bonzo, no longer in possession of one's faculties, three fries short of a happy meal, WACKO!! - Jack O'Neill
User avatar
Alan C
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 2200
Age: 43
Male

New Zealand (nz)
Print view this post

Re: Religion and race

#10  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 30, 2019 10:06 pm

I'll wait to hear what Alan A has to say.
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 27415
Age: 44
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Re: Religion and race

#11  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 30, 2019 10:11 pm

Alan C wrote:Don't, for example, Eastern European and Russian Jews mess up the notion of race?


But seriously, everything real messes up the notion of race, which is why if one wants to employ the notion of race, one should do one's utmost to ignore anything fact based and instead delve deeply into one's own emotions! :)

I think it's probably the most widespread biological misconception still present today, and it's always fun to counter excessively hostile and argumentative interlocutors insisting on race realism while calling you all manner of names for questioning it to say 'Go on then - list the races'. :lol: What you nearly always get is a list of skin colours which suggests to the discerning that such people have the intellectual sophistication of a slightly under-developed 3 year old.
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 27415
Age: 44
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Re: Religion and race

#12  Postby Alan C » Jul 30, 2019 11:21 pm

Indeed.

On a related note I find it curious when some inbred white knuckledragger bleats about genetic purity when, to my knowledge, the indigenous peoples of Africa would likely be the closest to the notion of 'pure' humans. Genetic diversity being one measure I'm aware of. Regardless, we're all humans when it comes down to it, until Homo Superior pops up.
:telekinesis:

I also now recalled a comment years ago about Indians having had some genetic influences or similarities with white Europeans so I'm now partway through an article on this topic, following this I'll then check for other articles on this [hunting for the most apparently reputable sources I can]. It's interesting.
:book:
Lose it - it means go crazy, nuts, insane, bonzo, no longer in possession of one's faculties, three fries short of a happy meal, WACKO!! - Jack O'Neill
User avatar
Alan C
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 2200
Age: 43
Male

New Zealand (nz)
Print view this post

Re: Religion and race

#13  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 30, 2019 11:59 pm

The notion of a 'pure human' though is nonsensical - we're all pure human, possessing no genes or traits that aren't human. You could - for silly reasons - opt for 'pure haplogroup' meaning you have all the markers of a particular haplogroup and none of the markers of any other with derived mutations, but given that haplogroups are all nested hierarchies of derived alleles, then the 'pure' element there would be the alleles shared by all humans, not any derived grouping. The markers also represent an absolutely tiny proportion of variation comparative to the majority of shared genes. We universally share 99.9% of the same genes, regardless of where we're from, and we share approximately the same degree of variation - approximately 3 million differences with everyone, regardless of whether they're your neighbour or were born on the other side of the world. Essentially all genomic differences (90%+) between humans are in their SNPs - single nucleotide polymorphisms - of which there are approximately 2 million in the human genome out of a total of 3,200,000,000 nucleotides. Puts things into perspective!

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK21134/
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 27415
Age: 44
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Re: Religion and race

#14  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 31, 2019 12:02 am

Alan C wrote:
I also now recalled a comment years ago about Indians having had some genetic influences or similarities with white Europeans so I'm now partway through an article on this topic, following this I'll then check for other articles on this [hunting for the most apparently reputable sources I can]. It's interesting.
:book:



This is due to Proto-Indo-European populations spreading from the Pontic Caspian Steppe Region sometime in the Late Neolithic. Basically, it was the Mongols millennia before with horse riding pastoralists conquering and interbreeding with local populations of agriculturalists from Europe, through Persia, into India taking language, tools, material culture, animals, and genes with them.

Speaking PIE is my nerdy party trick where I pretend I know words in every language because many agricultural words share an ancient PIE root. In English, 'ewe' is one such word, as is 'fart'.
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 27415
Age: 44
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Re: Religion and race

#15  Postby ughaibu » Aug 01, 2019 4:57 pm

Do jews themselves have words to distinguish the notion of inherited jewishness from that of religious commitment to jewishness?
ughaibu
 
Posts: 4391

Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Religion and race

#16  Postby Svartalf » Aug 01, 2019 5:26 pm

well they have different words for Hebrew (including the Hebraic language) and Jewish...
PC stands for Patronizing Cocksucker Randy Ping

Embrace the Dark Side, it needs a hug
User avatar
Svartalf
 
Posts: 1920
Age: 50
Male

Country: France
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: Religion and race

#17  Postby aban57 » Aug 01, 2019 7:32 pm

Alan B wrote:There's only one race - the Human Race...


Nothing much to be said.
aban57
 
Name: Cindy
Posts: 7150
Age: 40
Female

Country: France
Belgium (be)
Print view this post

Re: Religion and race

#18  Postby Ironclad » Aug 01, 2019 9:43 pm

One species, two races - us and them.
Get them!! :lay:
For Van Youngman - see you amongst the stardust, old buddy

"If there was no such thing as science, you'd be right " - Sean Lock

"God ....an inventive destroyer" - Broks
User avatar
Ironclad
RS Donator
 
Name: Nudge-Nudge
Posts: 23437
Age: 51
Male

Country: Wink-Wink
Indonesia (id)
Print view this post

Re: Religion and race

#19  Postby Spearthrower » Aug 01, 2019 10:13 pm

Ironclad wrote:One species, two races - us and them.
Get them!! :lay:


Them are those people who use two exclamation marks when just one will do! Get him! :lay:
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 27415
Age: 44
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Re: Religion and race

#20  Postby Ironclad » Aug 01, 2019 10:20 pm

:hide:
Fucking hell!
For Van Youngman - see you amongst the stardust, old buddy

"If there was no such thing as science, you'd be right " - Sean Lock

"God ....an inventive destroyer" - Broks
User avatar
Ironclad
RS Donator
 
Name: Nudge-Nudge
Posts: 23437
Age: 51
Male

Country: Wink-Wink
Indonesia (id)
Print view this post

Next

Return to Theism

Who is online

Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 1 guest