Love can have many meanings like we have discussed:

Love can be a feeling of affection which is a healthy does of Oxycontin, serotonin, dopamin, probably testosterone and some other feel good chemicals that we produce.. opeoids for instance.

Love can be an expression which someone will deliver to either display affection or a word intended to induce a feeling for someone else.

Love can be a fondness for an object, activity, or place.

Then there is the kind of love that is harder to come by. Love that is the feeling one gets from doing for others. It is brought about by the completion of an act of helping someone else. This can be many activities: helping a child with homework which leads to learning something new or getting a good grade; helping a neighbor by watching his or her dog for a weekend; volunteering at a homeless shelter feeding those that can't feed themselves, taking care of a hurt animal or getting help for it if it is injured, giving humanitarian aid to refugees, stopping someone before he or she hurts themselves or hurts someone else physically or psychologically, attempting to identify with someone or a group that appears to be preparing to do harm in order to diplomatically resolve the conflict, exposing someone who has committed an act of violence and prevent him or her from doing it again, acts for compassion and communication with someone who has hurt you or others safely in order to learn how to prevent someone from doing what ever it was again, and finally give comfort (safely) to someone who may be suffering even after he or she has committed even the most horrific of acts (perhaps not even giving comfort if that isn't possible but allowing yourself to release any hatred for that person by understanding that this person is flawed and will never enjoy the freedom that you or I know).

Loving someone who has offended you isn't easy especially if he or she is in a position to do so again but it can lead to a more productive environment for human and non-human development. Love can be used to strengthen the bonds between each other and our environment furthering us on the road to a better future... evolving us into more humane beings and eventually a better quality of life for all beings from Earth.

This is how I see love. It probably isn't complete yet as I am still young and learning but it does fit with many aspects of what I have observed to be the overall life experience. It does not seem to contradict Christianity (or other religions I know) or the perceived reality.

I will eventually like to talk about belief and how it can be a dangerous mindset for both religious people and non-religious people .

renaissavant wrote:Love can have many meanings like we have discussed:

Love can be a feeling of affection which is a healthy does of Oxycontin, serotonin, dopamin, probably testosterone and some other feel good chemicals that we produce.. opeoids for instance.

Love can be an expression which someone will deliver to either display affection or a word intended to induce a feeling for someone else.

Love can be a fondness for an object, activity, or place.

Then there is the kind of love that is harder to come by. Love that is the feeling one gets from doing for others. It is brought about by the completion of an act of helping someone else. This can be many activities: helping a child with homework which leads to learning something new or getting a good grade; helping a neighbor by watching his or her dog for a weekend; volunteering at a homeless shelter feeding those that can't feed themselves, taking care of a hurt animal or getting help for it if it is injured, giving humanitarian aid to refugees, stopping someone before he or she hurts themselves or hurts someone else physically or psychologically, attempting to identify with someone or a group that appears to be preparing to do harm in order to diplomatically resolve the conflict, exposing someone who has committed an act of violence and prevent him or her from doing it again, acts for compassion and communication with someone who has hurt you or others safely in order to learn how to prevent someone from doing what ever it was again, and finally give comfort (safely) to someone who may be suffering even after he or she has committed even the most horrific of acts (perhaps not even giving comfort if that isn't possible but allowing yourself to release any hatred for that person by understanding that this person is flawed and will never enjoy the freedom that you or I know).

Loving someone who has offended you isn't easy especially if he or she is in a position to do so again but it can lead to a more productive environment for human and non-human development. Love can be used to strengthen the bonds between each other and our environment furthering us on the road to a better future... evolving us into more humane beings and eventually a better quality of life for all beings from Earth.

This is how I see love. It probably isn't complete yet as I am still young and learning but it does fit with many aspects of what I have observed to be the overall life experience. It does not seem to contradict Christianity (or other religions I know) or the perceived reality.

I will eventually like to talk about belief and how it can be a dangerous mindset for both religious people and non-religious people .

I think that you are mistaking love for empathy and some other emotions. Love = lust. It is that simple, don't confuse love/lust with empathy, affection or familiarity.

I have spent a long time trying to understand the appeal of Christianity since I was brought up without it. I finally came to the conclusion that it isn't as complex as people make it out to be and I don't disagree with the fundamental philosophy.

Religion may be simple to the point of idiotic,but the justifications are often complex and subtle bits of sophistry.

Be fascinated to learn of what bits of Christian philosophy you accept. Partly because I'm unaware of any original ideas in Christianity and partly because I'm a moral relativists and reject moral absolutes. abolutes.inity.partlybecaseimanwarofasingelnew iedaorpiceain""oFchrstainphilophyyouagreewith. me.MONE'i'mamoarraltievadmerejvt maorl abolutes.

Oldskeptic wrote:

renaissavant wrote:Love can have many meanings like we have discussed:

Love can be a feeling of affection which is a healthy does of Oxycontin, serotonin, dopamin, probably testosterone and some other feel good chemicals that we produce.. opeoids for instance.

Love can be an expression which someone will deliver to either display affection or a word intended to induce a feeling for someone else.

Love can be a fondness for an object, activity, or place.

Then there is the kind of love that is harder to come by. Love that is the feeling one gets from doing for others. It is brought about by the completion of an act of helping someone else. This can be many activities: helping a child with homework which leads to learning something new or getting a good grade; helping a neighbor by watching his or her dog for a weekend; volunteering at a homeless shelter feeding those that can't feed themselves, taking care of a hurt animal or getting help for it if it is injured, giving humanitarian aid to refugees, stopping someone before he or she hurts themselves or hurts someone else physically or psychologically, attempting to identify with someone or a group that appears to be preparing to do harm in order to diplomatically resolve the conflict, exposing someone who has committed an act of violence and prevent him or her from doing it again, acts for compassion and communication with someone who has hurt you or others safely in order to learn how to prevent someone from doing what ever it was again, and finally give comfort (safely) to someone who may be suffering even after he or she has committed even the most horrific of acts (perhaps not even giving comfort if that isn't possible but allowing yourself to release any hatred for that person by understanding that this person is flawed and will never enjoy the freedom that you or I know).

Loving someone who has offended you isn't easy especially if he or she is in a position to do so again but it can lead to a more productive environment for human and non-human development. Love can be used to strengthen the bonds between each other and our environment furthering us on the road to a better future... evolving us into more humane beings and eventually a better quality of life for all beings from Earth.

This is how I see love. It probably isn't complete yet as I am still young and learning but it does fit with many aspects of what I have observed to be the overall life experience. It does not seem to contradict Christianity (or other religions I know) or the perceived reality.

I will eventually like to talk about belief and how it can be a dangerous mindset for both religious people and non-religious people .

I think that you are mistaking love for empathy and some other emotions. Love = lust. It is that simple, don't confuse love/lust with empathy, affection or familiarity.

What?! Really? Do you lust children??!!

renaissavant wrote:

Oldskeptic wrote:

renaissavant wrote:Love can have many meanings like we have discussed:

Love can be a feeling of affection which is a healthy does of Oxycontin, serotonin, dopamin, probably testosterone and some other feel good chemicals that we produce.. opeoids for instance.

Love can be an expression which someone will deliver to either display affection or a word intended to induce a feeling for someone else.

Love can be a fondness for an object, activity, or place.

Then there is the kind of love that is harder to come by. Love that is the feeling one gets from doing for others. It is brought about by the completion of an act of helping someone else. This can be many activities: helping a child with homework which leads to learning something new or getting a good grade; helping a neighbor by watching his or her dog for a weekend; volunteering at a homeless shelter feeding those that can't feed themselves, taking care of a hurt animal or getting help for it if it is injured, giving humanitarian aid to refugees, stopping someone before he or she hurts themselves or hurts someone else physically or psychologically, attempting to identify with someone or a group that appears to be preparing to do harm in order to diplomatically resolve the conflict, exposing someone who has committed an act of violence and prevent him or her from doing it again, acts for compassion and communication with someone who has hurt you or others safely in order to learn how to prevent someone from doing what ever it was again, and finally give comfort (safely) to someone who may be suffering even after he or she has committed even the most horrific of acts (perhaps not even giving comfort if that isn't possible but allowing yourself to release any hatred for that person by understanding that this person is flawed and will never enjoy the freedom that you or I know).

Loving someone who has offended you isn't easy especially if he or she is in a position to do so again but it can lead to a more productive environment for human and non-human development. Love can be used to strengthen the bonds between each other and our environment furthering us on the road to a better future... evolving us into more humane beings and eventually a better quality of life for all beings from Earth.

This is how I see love. It probably isn't complete yet as I am still young and learning but it does fit with many aspects of what I have observed to be the overall life experience. It does not seem to contradict Christianity (or other religions I know) or the perceived reality.

I will eventually like to talk about belief and how it can be a dangerous mindset for both religious people and non-religious people .

I think that you are mistaking love for empathy and some other emotions. Love = lust. It is that simple, don't confuse love/lust with empathy, affection or familiarity.

What?! Really? Do you lust children??!!

I think that you missed the part where I said that you were mistaking love/lust for other emotions. Do you love your sexual partner/s like you "love" your mother, children, or friends. They are entirely different emotions.

Oldskeptic wrote:

I think that you missed the part where I said that you were mistaking love/lust for other emotions. Do you love your sexual partner/s like you "love" your mother, children, or friends. They are entirely different emotions.

Well then you might as well be saying that you don't love your partner, you lust after her/him, whereas you love your children. Why is one set of feelings to be considered love, but another set isn't?

Anyway, I don't agree. You can feel love for a number of different people, and the relationship is slightly different, the expression of your feelings slightly different, but you can't/don't need to come up with a new word for each and every iteration. Further, you might feel lust for your partner under certain circumstances and a love more similar to a friend under other circumstances, and that fierce protective kind of love under yet other circumstances. I think the only quality of a partner is that you love them in all the ways you love other people plus you lust after them.

Belief is the problem. If one gets scared into believing something blindly they are subject to influence and mind control. This is where religion gets dangerous. One can practice religion without having to believe so strongly that he or she rejects reality... but many people people with religious leadership call for complete faith and to reject a large part of what is real = conflict.

Spearthrower wrote:

Oldskeptic wrote:

I think that you missed the part where I said that you were mistaking love/lust for other emotions. Do you love your sexual partner/s like you "love" your mother, children, or friends. They are entirely different emotions.

Well then you might as well be saying that you don't love your partner, you lust after her/him, whereas you love your children. Why is one set of feelings to be considered love, but another set isn't?

Because they are differing emotions that deserve different words or as someone else earlier pointed out at least different added adjectives as qualifiers. You don't love your sexual partner/s the same way that you love your children, mother, father, sisters, brothers, or friends and distant relatives.

Romantic love involves lust. Maternal, fraternal, sibling, and familiar love do not involve lust. They involve different chemical pathways in the brain and different hormones.

Anyway, I don't agree. You can feel love for a number of different people, and the relationship is slightly different, the expression of your feelings slightly different, but you can't/don't need to come up with a new word for each and every iteration.

Maybe not every iteration but certainly in some. I have more affection for my youngest daughter and my mother than I do for my oldest daughter and my older brother. I never really had any affection for my father who died a year ago. I would say that I love my youngest daughter and my mother but I do not want to fuck them. So, there is not romantic type of love involved here.

This demonstrates that there are different emotions that we use the same word for.

Further, you might feel lust for your partner under certain circumstances and a love more similar to a friend under other circumstances, and that fierce protective kind of love under yet other circumstances. I think the only quality of a partner is that you love them in all the ways you love other people plus you lust after them.

Perhaps, but you ignore that sometimes lustful love overcomes the "love" of children to their detriment. Also from experience I can say that I can have had romantic love/lustful love of a female that I don't love in any other way.

Love without lust is nothing more than differing levels of affection towards people that you know.

Oldskeptic wrote:

Spearthrower wrote:

Oldskeptic wrote:

I think that you missed the part where I said that you were mistaking love/lust for other emotions. Do you love your sexual partner/s like you "love" your mother, children, or friends. They are entirely different emotions.

Well then you might as well be saying that you don't love your partner, you lust after her/him, whereas you love your children. Why is one set of feelings to be considered love, but another set isn't?

Because they are differing emotions that deserve different words or as someone else earlier pointed out at least different added adjectives as qualifiers. You don't love your sexual partner/s the same way that you love your children, mother, father, sisters, brothers, or friends and distant relatives.

Romantic love involves lust. Maternal, fraternal, sibling, and familiar love do not involve lust. They involve different chemical pathways in the brain and different hormones.

That's what I am saying. So why call romantic love 'love' when it requires something more than just love?

Oldskeptic wrote:

Anyway, I don't agree. You can feel love for a number of different people, and the relationship is slightly different, the expression of your feelings slightly different, but you can't/don't need to come up with a new word for each and every iteration.

Maybe not every iteration but certainly in some. I have more affection for my youngest daughter and my mother than I do for my oldest daughter and my older brother. I never really had any affection for my father who died a year ago. I would say that I love my youngest daughter and my mother but I do not want to fuck them. So, there is not romantic type of love involved here.

This demonstrates that there are different emotions that we use the same word for.

I never once argued that there aren't different emotional contexts, I was arguing that reducing that context to only account for lustful/sexual love seems to be impoverishing the word. Sure, we could use the Greek words: Agápe, Éros, Philia, and Storge... but I think that just using adjectives to modify the single noun has equal significance in English.

Oldskeptic wrote:

Further, you might feel lust for your partner under certain circumstances and a love more similar to a friend under other circumstances, and that fierce protective kind of love under yet other circumstances. I think the only quality of a partner is that you love them in all the ways you love other people plus you lust after them.

Perhaps, but you ignore that sometimes lustful love overcomes the "love" of children to their detriment.

The reverse occurs too, so again i don't find it a meaningful distinction in that sense.

Oldskeptic wrote:Also from experience I can say that I can have had romantic love/lustful love of a female that I don't love in any other way.

Have you never loved a (non-related) female without lusting after her?

Oldskeptic wrote:Love without lust is nothing more than differing levels of affection towards people that you know.

That just seems like a fundamental equivocation to me that still doesn't answer the counter that lust is a completely separate thing to love, and therefore has no bearing on what love means.

You can lust after someone you don't love, just as much as you can love someone you don't lust after.

Lust is different and simpler than love. Lusting after someone means you want to have sex with them. You can love someone you lust after but you can also lust after someone you don't care about hence one night stands and men taking advantage of drunk women. They are different. I have never been "in love" but I have lusted after many women. I'm pretty sure if I was to fall in love with someone I would have a sexual attraction for her but that would be very basic and primitive compared to my ability to nurture, care for, and love this woman. Ultimately sexual attraction comes from our instinct to reproduce which is why it is so strong ... it is a survival instinct and humans are great at surviving.

Okay one more point. Courting someone is different from seducing someone as well. There is an instinct to dominate another person which is also different from loving someone and even from wanting to reproduce. In a committed relationship many of the bonding and attachment instincts seem to also surround ultimately having a baby even if that never actually happens. Rape, on the other hand, is an extreme act of domination that has no love but is all about hurting someone else ... it probably comes from lust for sexual domination and violence.

Being in love, to me, means a mutual attraction that is acted upon. Both people agree to love each other unconditionally and work to keep the feeling of love alive within themselves and each other. I'm pretty sure it involve a commitment to each other as well as partnership. It doesn't work if one person's needs become more important than the others or any feelings of superiority over the other. If I was ever to get married my wife will be my equal partner. She will compliment and enhance my life as much as I do her. Two independent people with independent lives that share them with each other. It should be effortless and each person should be able to find peace and comfort from the other. Sex is very important but there needs to be more substance than that like a willingness to be friends. This is very idealistic but also realistic as I have seen it happen with people who have been together 40, 50, or more years together. There is also a genetic component where the bond between them is a natural one which takes no effort ... nature does all the work there. If there isn't a genetic bond between the two it probably won't work out.

It's only happened to me once in my life, but I have actually been in love with a woman I had no lust for whatsoever. She wasn't ugly, but there was nothing physical about her I found appealing. She was, however, the brightest, funniest, most intelligent person I'd ever encountered. We'd go to bed together, and just hug. Nothing remotely sexual for my part, and consequently no biological response. I'd still feel slightly giddy when on the way to meet her, and would happily spend hours with her just to be in her company.

I don't think it's ever worth drawing a box around what love means when it clearly means different things to different people in different times and under different circumstances.

Spearthrower wrote:It's only happened to me once in my life, but I have actually been in love with a woman I had no lust for whatsoever. She wasn't ugly, but there was nothing physical about her I found appealing. She was, however, the brightest, funniest, most intelligent person I'd ever encountered. We'd go to bed together, and just hug. Nothing remotely sexual for my part, and consequently no biological response. I'd still feel slightly giddy when on the way to meet her, and would happily spend hours with her just to be in her company.

I don't think it's ever worth drawing a box around what love means when it clearly means different things to different people in different times and under different circumstances.

That was very well put. I really only try to decipher these terms so that I can better understand my fellow man and myself. But true when one tries to deconstruct the life experience the way I am doing it can seem to take some of the magic away.

I do still feel magic despite me analytic mind. I feel the magic in the ideas of everything being a product of the fundamental forces of nature. I also think there is something magical about life and for me. at least, know matter how much I know there will always be mystery and intrigue since we are still in the infancy of what is perceptible.

I was hoping to give some ammunition against Christian bigots but I may have a lot more work to do before I can make my case.