Reviving the pagan mystery religions

tolman · **#1241** by **tolman** » Sep 17, 2014 4:58 pm

If the mystical branches of various modern religions actually were in contact with the universal godhead of vagueness and hippy one-ness and self-satisfaction, why would old Pagan Mystery Religions need to be revived at all?

And if contact with this supposed universal (and distinctly un-god-like) godhead was Deeply Dangerous for conventional religions, why do we still have conventional religions despite them each supposedly having their own spiritual fifth column inside them, as they have for many centuries?

Oh yes! - You Just Watch Out when there are (as there already are) lots of people wired into the special oneness.
Things will change then (except that they obviously haven't).

If savithru's arguments are supposed to be the result of this special connection with the divine, they are hardly an advertisement for it.
I've seen more coherent arguments coming from people who had clearly taken far too much acid.

savithru · **#1242** by **savithru** » Sep 17, 2014 4:59 pm

BlackBart wrote:Definitely random jibberish. I like wibble too, thanks for adding it. Just because something parses, it doesn't mean it makes sense or is actually true. All you've done is come here, make a few weird unsupported assertions and provided a few links to more wibble and a couple of videos of a few herberts doing pilates or whatever the fuck it is. You're just embarrassing yourself. You're basically engaging in the 21st equivalent of shouting and raving at a bus queue. A few people in the queue are laughing and pointing, most are don't care what you're babbling about and are ignoring you.
Carry on if you wish, but all that will happen is another 62 pages of the same old shit.

What could be more embarrassing to those who laugh at me and ignore me than their complete ignorance of the history of religion and the truth behind it. Esoteric knowledge indeed exists. What could be more embarrassing to all those rationally oriented and scientific minded people than the truth that a humble priest worshipping a deity has a far better understanding of the working of the cosmos than the scientists working at CERN. :lol:

Scientists along with their scientific method in dark underground tunnels think that they know more about the universe than the person who created this universe. :lol:

Why the Esoteric Teaching is Kept Secret

It is difficult to convey to the average European or American the true reasons underlying the Secrecy which invariably surrounds the Esoteric Teachings of all the great schools of occult thought. Such a person is inclined to think that the only reason therefore is the delight in "mystery mongering" which he thinks he finds among all occult teachers. But to one who penetrates even but a short distance on The Path, the true reasons are perceived. Such a one perceives the dangers of premature disclosure of important esoteric principles to the unprepared public mind. The following quotations from a well-known writer will perhaps give a hint to the solution of this question. The writer says:

"The Oriental method of cultivating knowledge has always differed diametrically from that pursued in the West during the growth of modern sciences. Whilst Europe has investigated Nature as publicly as possible, every step being discussed with the utmost freedom, and every fresh fact acquired circulated at once for the benefit of all, Asiatic science has been studied secretly and its conquests jealously guarded. I need not as yet attempt either criticism or defence of its methods. The student will later on see that this falls naturally into its place in the whole scheme of occult philosophy. The approaches to that philosophy have always been open, in one sense, to all. Vaguely throughout the world in various ways have been diffused the idea that some process of study which men here and there did actually follow, might lead to the acquisition of a higher kind of knowledge than that taught to mankind at large in books or by public teachers. The East, as pointed out, has always been more than vaguely impressed with this belief; but even in the West the whole block of symbolical literature relating to astrology, alchemy, and mysticism generally has fermented in European society, carrying to some peculiarly receptive and qualified minds the conviction that behind all this superficially meaningless nonsense great truths lay concealed. For such persons eccentric study has sometimes revealed hidden passages leading to the grandest imaginable realms of enlightenment. But till now, in all such cases, in accordance with the law of those schools, the neophyte no sooner forced his way into the region of mystery than he was bound over to the most inviolable secrecy as to everything connected with his entrance and further progress there. In Asia, in the same way, the chela, or pupil of occultism, no sooner became a chela than he ceased to be a witness on behalf of the reality of occult knowledge. I have been astonished to find, since my own connection with the subject, how numerous such chelas are. But it is impossible to imagine any human act more improbable than the unauthorized revelation by any such chela, to persons of the outer world, that he is one; and so the great esoteric school of philosophy successfully guards its seclusion. * * * It is however desirable to disabuse the reader of one conception in regard to the objects of adeptship that he very likely has formed. The development of those spiritual faculties, whose culture has to do with the highest objects of the occult life, gives rise as it progresses to a great deal of incidental knowledge, having to do with physical laws of Nature not yet generally understood. This knowledge, and the practical art of manipulating certain obscure forces of Nature, which it brings in its train, invest an adept, and even an adept's pupils, at a comparatively early stage of their education, with very extraordinary powers, the application of which to matters of daily life will sometimes produce results that seem altogether miraculous; and from the ordinary point of view, the acquisition of apparently miraculous power is such a stupendous achievement, that people are sometimes apt to fancy that the adept's object in seeking the knowledge he attains has been to invest himself with these coveted powers. It would be as reasonable to say of any great patriot of military history that his object in becoming a soldier has been to wear a gay uniform and impress the imagination of the nurse maids."

THE ROSICRUCIANS AND THEIR SECRET DOCTRINE

Varangian · **#1243** by **Varangian** » Sep 17, 2014 5:28 pm

savithru wrote:What could be more embarrassing to those who laugh at me and ignore me than their complete ignorance of the history of religion and the truth behind it. Esoteric knowledge indeed exists. What could be more embarrassing to all those rationally oriented and scientific minded people than the truth that a humble priest worshipping a deity has a far better understanding of the working of the cosmos than the scientists working at CERN. Scientists along with their scientific method in dark underground tunnels think that they know more about the universe than the person who created this universe.

Have you trained to achieve this level of stupid reasoning, or do you have a natural affinity for it?

BlackBart · **#1244** by **BlackBart** » Sep 17, 2014 5:39 pm

What could be more embarrassing to those who laugh at me and ignore me than their complete ignorance of the history of religion and the truth behind it.

Why would it be embarrassing? You've have totally failed to demonstrate that your assertions have any value whatsoever. You may as well claim it's embarrassing to not know what Unicorn shit smells like.

Esoteric knowledge indeed exists.

Unicorn shit indeed exists. Get the idea yet?

What could be more embarrassing to all those rationally oriented and scientific minded people than the truth that a humble priest worshipping a deity has a far better understanding of the working of the cosmos than the scientists working at CERN.

Except there's no evidence to suggest he does. Again, you've merely asserted it. We've demonstrably received more knowledge from scientists than from any priest. Was it priests who eradicated Smallpox? Or provided drinking water that isn't thick with cryptodsporidium? Was it a priest who developed the PC that you tap your fatuous assertions into?

If I need my shoes shining, I'll call for a priest, until then...

Scientists along with their scientific method in dark underground tunnels think that they know more about the universe than the person who created this universe.

Er, yeah, you're doing the bus queue thing again. That's an spectacularly asinine statement. CERN scientists do not think they know more than 'the person who created the universe' any more than they think they know more than Mickey Mouse. They merely know what they observe from their experiments. Scientists don't give a shit about your pretend friend, they're more interested in actually getting on with doing something useful.

<Rest of the Emperor's new clothes wankery snipped>

GrahamH · **#1245** by **GrahamH** » Sep 17, 2014 5:59 pm

This joke has been running for 63 pages? :lol:

tolman · **#1246** by **tolman** » Sep 17, 2014 6:02 pm

savithru wrote:What could be more embarrassing to those who laugh at me and ignore me than their complete ignorance of the history of religion and the truth behind it.

The truth behind it is that it's made-up-shit to try and explain human experience and paper over the cracks in contemporary human understanding.

savithru wrote:Esoteric knowledge indeed exists. What could be more embarrassing to all those rationally oriented and scientific minded people than the truth that a humble priest worshipping a deity has a far better understanding of the working of the cosmos than the scientists working at CERN.

Coming to feel one has a great connection with the universe isn't hard.
"Half a gramme for a half-holiday..."

If the feeling of connection with everything is the goal, people devoting their lives to meditation or other esoteric practices really are doing it the hard way, and due to human psychology, in the process of doing it the hard way they risk fooling themselves that the end result is far more special and difficult and ultimate and real than it actually is.

savithru wrote:Scientists along with their scientific method in dark underground tunnels think that they know more about the universe than the person who created this universe.

I doubt the ones who have religious belief think that.
Yet not being fuckwits, they understand that the way to get meaningful knowledge about reality is not to sit on one's arse staring at one's navel, fooling oneself that one thereby knows the mind of god.

savithru wrote:

Why the Esoteric Teaching is Kept Secret

It is difficult to convey to the average European or American the true reasons underlying the Secrecy which invariably surrounds the Esoteric Teachings of all the great schools of occult thought. Such a person is inclined to think that the only reason therefore is the delight in "mystery mongering" which he thinks he finds among all occult teachers. But to one who penetrates even but a short distance on The Path, the true reasons are perceived. Such a one perceives the dangers of premature disclosure of important esoteric principles to the unprepared public mind.

Sure - the truth is so dangerous it will blow everyone's mind, and it's unfair to tell them.

The classic all-time excuse used by peddlers of mystical bollocks to try and explain why despite their claims to Deep Knowledge they consistently do Sweet Fuck All with it beyond feeling self-satisfied and marketing it to the emotionally vulnerable and gullible fuckwits.
After all, if it's so dangerous for Lesser Mortals, that just goes to show how Important and Wise and Special and Strong the marks acolytes are, doesn't it?*

Sure, they could push people over with a single virtual blow, or use the Force to strangle enemies of the Galactic Emperor from a distance, but they are just too darned scared of destroying humanity in the process.

If not for that, you can bet your arse that they would.

Really, truly, they would.

(*)A classic case in point being $cientology. It's not that the underlying explanations of reality are so fucking ridiculous that someone needs years of expensive gullibility preparation and sunk costs to avoid pissing themselves laughing when they hear them.
It's that they'd literally blow the minds of mere civilians.
No joke, they surely would.
Honest.
Cross my heart and hope to work for a living.

chairman bill · **#1247** by **chairman bill** » Sep 17, 2014 6:04 pm

savithru wrote:What could be more embarrassing to those who laugh at me and ignore me than their complete ignorance of the history of religion and the truth behind it. Esoteric knowledge indeed exists. What could be more embarrassing to all those rationally oriented and scientific minded people than the truth that a humble priest worshipping a deity has a far better understanding of the working of the cosmos than the scientists working at CERN. Scientists along with their scientific method in dark underground tunnels think that they know more about the universe than the person who created this universe.

You assume an ignorance, which is embarrasing enough. You make blind assertions as if they were true, with no evidence to support those claims. You should be embarrassed about that too.

laklak · **#1248** by **laklak** » Sep 17, 2014 6:09 pm

Well, you've shown me that you can type in other people's unsupported bollocks, how about you

savithru · **#1249** by **savithru** » Sep 17, 2014 7:05 pm

Varangian wrote:
savithru wrote:What could be more embarrassing to those who laugh at me and ignore me than their complete ignorance of the history of religion and the truth behind it. Esoteric knowledge indeed exists. What could be more embarrassing to all those rationally oriented and scientific minded people than the truth that a humble priest worshipping a deity has a far better understanding of the working of the cosmos than the scientists working at CERN. Scientists along with their scientific method in dark underground tunnels think that they know more about the universe than the person who created this universe.

Have you trained to achieve this level of stupid reasoning, or do you have a natural affinity for it?

Neither, I have trained myself to have gnostic visionary experiences and Kant said it was fucking stupid of metaphysicians to gain knowledge of God which is purely a metaphysical concept based on synthetic a priori knowledge. God is beyond logic and reason. However religious experiences are synthetic posteriori knowledge which is a perfectly valid form of epistemology. Based on my knowledge gained from my experience I can make statements like "God is anthropomorphic" which is a synthetic posteriori statement about the external physical world.

tolman · **#1250** by **tolman** » Sep 17, 2014 8:43 pm

savithru wrote:Kant said it was fucking stupid of metaphysicians to gain knowledge of God which is purely a metaphysical concept based on synthetic a priori knowledge.

Well, what would we have done without a World Class Philosopher to tell us that.
Apart from 'absolutely nothing different'.

savithru wrote:Based on my knowledge gained from my experience I can make statements like "God is anthropomorphic" which is a synthetic posteriori statement about the external physical world.

It seems pretty retarded to try and promote internal mystical experiences to the level of knowledge about the physical world without being able to demonstrate that that knowledge is more than imaginary.
Something which 'mystics' stretching back to the dawn of time seem to consistently fail to do to other than their own satisfaction, with or without fucktarded and cowardly excuses as to why they can't possibly demonstrate anything to the doubting masses.
At least once the masses get wise to cheap tricks of legerdemain, that is.

Most oddly, the mystics seem to be in a similar boat to the metaphysical masturbators, since they also can't demonstrate anything to the satisfaction of anyone but themselves and those already desperate to believe.

One could be forgiven that there was some common element there.
Such as, for example, both of them trying to prove that made-up-shit was actually real, and thinking that emotions and conviction (or, at least, their emotions and their conviction) should qualify as 'evidence'.

Xaihe · **#1251** by **Xaihe** » Sep 18, 2014 5:35 am

savithru wrote:
Varangian wrote:
savithru wrote:What could be more embarrassing to those who laugh at me and ignore me than their complete ignorance of the history of religion and the truth behind it. Esoteric knowledge indeed exists. What could be more embarrassing to all those rationally oriented and scientific minded people than the truth that a humble priest worshipping a deity has a far better understanding of the working of the cosmos than the scientists working at CERN. Scientists along with their scientific method in dark underground tunnels think that they know more about the universe than the person who created this universe.

Have you trained to achieve this level of stupid reasoning, or do you have a natural affinity for it?

Neither, I have trained myself to have gnostic visionary experiences and Kant said it was fucking stupid of metaphysicians to gain knowledge of God which is purely a metaphysical concept based on synthetic a priori knowledge. God is beyond logic and reason.

If God is beyond logic and reason, then this sentence is meaningless. It also means:
- None of your supposed knowledge of God can be described by language, since language is based on logic and reason.
- Evidence for God is impossible, so it makes me wonder why you think that one day there will be such evidence.

However religious experiences are synthetic posteriori knowledge which is a perfectly valid form of epistemology. Based on my knowledge gained from my experience I can make statements like "God is anthropomorphic" which is a synthetic posteriori statement about the external physical world.

None of this has any meaning if God is beyond logic and reason. Any logical statement such as "God is anthropomorphic" is internally contradictory when God is beyond logic and reason.

Any attempt to address these points using logic and reason invalidates the proposition that God is beyond logic and reason.

Coastal · **#1252** by **Coastal** » Sep 18, 2014 6:29 am

Nice try Xaihe, but this whole thread is beyond logic and reason, we just have to take his word for it.

Scot Dutchy · **#1253** by **Scot Dutchy** » Sep 18, 2014 7:02 am

Why is this thread not shut down.

It is a load of worthless shit. He has been allowed to insult and threaten atheists in no uncertain terms and yet he is still here while a few of us have been suspended for using the f**** word against him.

This is a disgusting show of PC at its worst. This guy is preaching and doing almost everything the FUA does not allow. He has been given long enough.

PLEASE SHUT THIS SHIT DOWN.

Varangian · **#1254** by **Varangian** » Sep 18, 2014 7:15 am

Because the Internet is a global village.

savithru · **#1255** by **savithru** » Sep 18, 2014 8:45 am

Xaihe wrote:
If God is beyond logic and reason, then this sentence is meaningless. It also means:
- None of your supposed knowledge of God can be described by language, since language is based on logic and reason.

Yeah you have hit upon a very important point here. There are some special languages whose words are beyond logic and reason. This was the main disagreement between the divine Iamblichus and Porphyry. Certain divine names does possess supra-rational efficacy when invoked by the operators of theurgy and provide them with supernatural powers. You English speaking people will never understand the mysteries unless you incorporate divine words or divine phonetics into your language. However we whose native language is close to Sanskrit are quick to understand the pagan mysteries and it is a cake walk for us.

"The idea that the Egyptian language specifically held magical power is seen in the writings of people of the time. In the Hermetica (CH xvi) there is a passage which states that Greeks will not understand the Hermetica when translated into their language as Greek does not contain the power of Egyptian. The Chaldean Oracles state "do not ever alter the foreign names (of the gods)". Lewy elaborates further, "It is impossible to translate the magical formula, because its power it not due to its external sense." Iamblichus, describing the difficulty of translating the Hermetica from Egyptian to Greek says ". . .for the very quality of the sounds and the [intonation] of the Egyptian words contain in itself the force of things said." Invocation of deities by their secret names is also characteristic of Egyptian magic prior to the PGM according to Pinch, but unfortunately she does not give examples. "

- Greek Magical Papyri

- Evidence for God is impossible, so it makes me wonder why you think that one day there will be such evidence.

Evidence for God is impossible? When we revive the pagan mystery religions and the things in the Greek Magical Papyri finally, people will be caught up in the third heaven whether its out of body or with body I do not know, people will ascend to heaven and meet King Helios Mithras, more and more people will be taken to heaven like Elijah and Enoch in a whirlwind, angels will walk on earth and have intercourse with humans, people will have similar apocalypses like Saint Paul, more and more people will have supernatural assistants, that's how deep the rabbit hole truly goes.

None of this has any meaning if God is beyond logic and reason. Any logical statement such as "God is anthropomorphic" is internally contradictory when God is beyond logic and reason.

Any attempt to address these points using logic and reason invalidates the proposition that God is beyond logic and reason.

Logic and Reason? Fuck that when it comes to religion.

Varangian · **#1256** by **Varangian** » Sep 18, 2014 8:59 am

savithru wrote:Logic and Reason? Fuck that when it comes to religion.

For once something we can agree on!

chairman bill · **#1257** by **chairman bill** » Sep 18, 2014 9:20 am

savithru wrote:... angels will walk on earth and have intercourse with humans ...

Oh I hope I find one who looks like this

[Reveal] NOT SAFE FOR WORK / EXPLICIT CONTENT

BlackBart · **#1258** by **BlackBart** » Sep 18, 2014 9:38 am

Varangian wrote:
savithru wrote:Logic and Reason? Fuck that when it comes to religion.

For once something we can agree on!

/thread

ADParker · **#1259** by **ADParker** » Sep 18, 2014 10:11 am

savithru wrote:Logic and Reason? Fuck that when it comes to religion.

Amen.

savithru · **#1260** by **savithru** » Sep 19, 2014 10:01 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:The guy does not even believe that planets and stars exist.

I do not believe that planets and stars exist because they are just mere shadow copies of the ideal beings existing in the platonic realm or in other words Pleroma. The only reason why I believe in this is because people across different cultures have said that it literally exists and have experienced it themselves, also certain interpretations of quantum mechanics implies such a view and also certain mathematicians believe that numbers have an independent existence of their own.

First the • (Point), the Monad, Bythus (the Deep), the unknown and unknowable Father. Then the Δ (Triangle), Bythus and the first emanated pair or Duad, Nous (Mind) and its syzygy Aletheia (Truth). Then the □ (Square), the dual Duad, Tetractys or Quaternary, two males ||, the Logos (Word) and Anthrôpos (Man), two females, their syzygies, = Zoê (Life) and Ekklesia (the Church or Assembly), Seven in all. The Triangle the Potentiality of Spirit, the Square the Potentiality of Matter; the Vertical Straight Line the Potency of Spirit, and the Horizontal the Potency of Matter. Next comes the Pentagram ⋆, the Pentad, the mysterious symbol of the Manasáputras or Sons of Wisdom, which together with their syzygies make 10, or the Decad; and last of all, the Hexalpha or interlaced Triangles ✡ the Hexad, which with their syzygies make 12, or the Dodecad. Such are the Contents of the Pleroma or Completion, the Ideas in the Divine Mind, 28 in all, for Bythus or the Father is not reckoned, as it is the Root of all. The two small circles within the Pleroma are the syzygy Christos-Pneuma (Christ and the Holy Spirit); these are after-emanations, and, as such, from one aspect, typify the descent of Spirit to inform and evolve Matter, which essentially proceeds from the same source . . . The Circle of the Pleroma is bounded by a circumference emanated from Bythus (the Point), this is called the Horus (Boundary), Staurus (Stock, Stake, or Cross) and Metæcheus (Participator); it shuts off the Pleroma (or Completion) from the Hystêrema (the Inferiority or Incompletion), the larger from the smaller Circle, the Unmanifested from the Manifested. Within the Circle of the Hysterêma is the Square of primordial Matter, or Chaos, emanated by Sophia, called the Ektrôma (or Abortion). Above this is a Triangle, primordial Spirit, called the Common Fruit of the Pleroma, or Jesus, for to all below the Pleroma it appears as a unity. Notice how the Triangle and Square of the Hysterêma are a reflection of the Triangle and Square of the Pleroma. Finally, the plane of the paper, enclosing and penetrating all, is Sigê (Silence).

— G.R.S. Mead & H.P. Blavatsky[6]

The larger circle is the ideal world of Plato and the smaller circle is our shadow world which is modelled on the basis of the ideal world of Plato. Christ is in you, the hope of glory. The greatest mystery ever revealed to mankind. The truth is in the Pauline letters.

Reviving the pagan mystery religions

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