Rise of Nationalism in the West

Is the rise of Islam the cause?

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Rise of Nationalism in the West

#1  Postby Adco » Mar 17, 2017 8:51 am

There appears to be a rise in Nationalism in the West. (no citation available, only personal observations) Look at the recent US elections and what Trump is trying to do with his travel ban. Look at the recent mood in the Nederlands with Wilders and co. and how the Far Right is raising it's ugly head. Look at one of the driving factors for Brexit, "give us our country back". Now I may be confirmation biased but this is what I see from where I reside.

It seems to me that the main cause of this is the Middle East, where predominantly Muslim countries are or were in military conflict. A lot of the conflict is Islam based. ISIS for example. A result has been massive displacements of people and subsequently, refugees. Understandably, the refugees flee to countries where they are more free. I would as well.

Most people involved are merely being human. They either want to live safely in a place where they wont be killed or persecuted (the refugees), or the don't want to give up their freedoms, entitlements, ways of life etc. (the original residents) There is fear coming from both sides and each side want to make sure that they are going to survive. An understandable society action.

I draw a conclusion that as a result of the conflicts that Islams seem to perpetuate, resulting in refugees, certain elements in Western countries have had enough and this directly results in the rise of Nationalism.

To add. I have no issues with Muslims in my country. I exhibit a product at Home Improvement shows and one of them is the EID Shopping Festival where about 30 000 Muslims come shopping for Eid gifts. I have never met more humble, non-assertive and caring people as what I encounter over that 4 day period. Fortunately, the Muslim community in South Africa does not have the same radical outlook as the Middle Eastern Muslims. I may be wrong, but I'm yet to see any signs of it.

Is there a discussion available from this OP?
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Re: Rise of Nationalism in the West

#2  Postby Keep It Real » Mar 17, 2017 9:19 am

The narrative in the uk which supports nationalism isn't really focused around islam/muslims, it's more about resenting eastern european immigrants. It's more down to generic "they don't integrate/they don't speak the language/they drive down wages" xenophobia.
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Re: Rise of Nationalism in the West

#3  Postby Calilasseia » Mar 17, 2017 9:22 am

Keep It Real wrote:The narrative in the uk which supports nationalism isn't really focused around islam/muslims, it's more about resenting eastern european immigrants. It's more down to generic "they don't integrate/they don't speak the language/they drive down wages" xenophobia.


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Re: Rise of Nationalism in the West

#4  Postby Adco » Mar 17, 2017 9:27 am

Keep It Real wrote:The narrative in the uk which supports nationalism isn't really focused around islam/muslims, it's more about resenting eastern european immigrants. It's more down to generic "they don't integrate/they don't speak the language/they drive down wages" xenophobia.
I don't want to flat out disagree because I don't have data on the numbers but isn't the current problem to do with refugees from Syria, Somalia, Iraq etc. Places where there is Muslim based conflict.

In the OP, I'm referring to recent events. I know there has always been problems with eastern European migrants for many years.
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Re: Rise of Nationalism in the West

#5  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Mar 17, 2017 10:33 am

Adco wrote:There appears to be a rise in Nationalism in the West. (no citation available, only personal observations) Look at the recent US elections and what Trump is trying to do with his travel ban. Look at the recent mood in the Nederlands with Wilders and co. and how the Far Right is raising it's ugly head. Look at one of the driving factors for Brexit, "give us our country back". Now I may be confirmation biased but this is what I see from where I reside.

It seems to me that the main cause of this is the Middle East, where predominantly Muslim countries are or were in military conflict. A lot of the conflict is Islam based. ISIS for example. A result has been massive displacements of people and subsequently, refugees. Understandably, the refugees flee to countries where they are more free. I would as well.

Most people involved are merely being human. They either want to live safely in a place where they wont be killed or persecuted (the refugees), or the don't want to give up their freedoms, entitlements, ways of life etc. (the original residents) There is fear coming from both sides and each side want to make sure that they are going to survive. An understandable society action.

I draw a conclusion that as a result of the conflicts that Islams seem to perpetuate, resulting in refugees, certain elements in Western countries have had enough and this directly results in the rise of Nationalism.

To add. I have no issues with Muslims in my country. I exhibit a product at Home Improvement shows and one of them is the EID Shopping Festival where about 30 000 Muslims come shopping for Eid gifts. I have never met more humble, non-assertive and caring people as what I encounter over that 4 day period. Fortunately, the Muslim community in South Africa does not have the same radical outlook as the Middle Eastern Muslims. I may be wrong, but I'm yet to see any signs of it.

Is there a discussion available from this OP?

With regards to the Dutch elections. Wilders chances and surge were greatly exxagerated by the media, mainly foreign but also to some degree, domestic.
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Re: Rise of Nationalism in the West

#6  Postby Adco » Mar 17, 2017 10:42 am

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Adco wrote:There appears to be a rise in Nationalism in the West. (no citation available, only personal observations) Look at the recent US elections and what Trump is trying to do with his travel ban. Look at the recent mood in the Nederlands with Wilders and co. and how the Far Right is raising it's ugly head. Look at one of the driving factors for Brexit, "give us our country back". Now I may be confirmation biased but this is what I see from where I reside.

It seems to me that the main cause of this is the Middle East, where predominantly Muslim countries are or were in military conflict. A lot of the conflict is Islam based. ISIS for example. A result has been massive displacements of people and subsequently, refugees. Understandably, the refugees flee to countries where they are more free. I would as well.

Most people involved are merely being human. They either want to live safely in a place where they wont be killed or persecuted (the refugees), or the don't want to give up their freedoms, entitlements, ways of life etc. (the original residents) There is fear coming from both sides and each side want to make sure that they are going to survive. An understandable society action.

I draw a conclusion that as a result of the conflicts that Islams seem to perpetuate, resulting in refugees, certain elements in Western countries have had enough and this directly results in the rise of Nationalism.

To add. I have no issues with Muslims in my country. I exhibit a product at Home Improvement shows and one of them is the EID Shopping Festival where about 30 000 Muslims come shopping for Eid gifts. I have never met more humble, non-assertive and caring people as what I encounter over that 4 day period. Fortunately, the Muslim community in South Africa does not have the same radical outlook as the Middle Eastern Muslims. I may be wrong, but I'm yet to see any signs of it.

Is there a discussion available from this OP?

With regards to the Dutch elections. Wilders chances and surge were greatly exxagerated by the media, mainly foreign but also to some degree, domestic.

Ok. Might be "fake news" but it is a sign that nationalism is more in the forefront than before.
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Re: Rise of Nationalism in the West

#7  Postby crank » Mar 17, 2017 10:49 am

It really should be pointed out the Islamic crap is the long-tail fubar due to great-power diddling with the area post WW!. The conflict with Islam is due mostly to US meddling, maybe you could say this round really started with the imposition of the Shah back in 50's. The more proximate causes have to do with our collusions with the Saudis and how we ignore and often aid them in spreading fundamentalists BS throughout the whole region.

I'd say a lot of the nationalism is fueled by the worsening economic conditions of people everywhere, due to getting screwed by the corporate elite mainly, which leads people to feel much less secure, which leads to fear, and that opens the population up to the demagogues who blame everything on 'them', meaning any convenient minority scapegoat.
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Re: Rise of Nationalism in the West

#8  Postby aban57 » Mar 17, 2017 10:56 am

The rise of nationalism you talk about alsot takes its source in the permanent failing, in the last 30 years or so, of the usual left/right governments to tackle everyday people's issues.
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Re: Rise of Nationalism in the West

#9  Postby I'm With Stupid » Mar 17, 2017 11:03 am

No it's a reaction against the globalisation that seems to have left some people behind.
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Re: Rise of Nationalism in the West

#10  Postby aban57 » Mar 17, 2017 11:12 am

I'm With Stupid wrote:No it's a reaction against the globalisation that seems to have left some people behind.


Well that's kind of what I was saying :)
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Re: Rise of Nationalism in the West

#11  Postby crank » Mar 17, 2017 12:33 pm

And some of what I was saying.
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Re: Rise of Nationalism in the West

#12  Postby Silent Mason » Mar 26, 2017 3:22 am

Adco wrote:There appears to be a rise in Nationalism in the West. (no citation available, only personal observations) Look at the recent US elections and what Trump is trying to do with his travel ban. Look at the recent mood in the Nederlands with Wilders and co. and how the Far Right is raising it's ugly head. Look at one of the driving factors for Brexit, "give us our country back". Now I may be confirmation biased but this is what I see from where I reside.

It seems to me that the main cause of this is the Middle East, where predominantly Muslim countries are or were in military conflict. A lot of the conflict is Islam based. ISIS for example. A result has been massive displacements of people and subsequently, refugees. Understandably, the refugees flee to countries where they are more free. I would as well.

Most people involved are merely being human. They either want to live safely in a place where they wont be killed or persecuted (the refugees), or the don't want to give up their freedoms, entitlements, ways of life etc. (the original residents) There is fear coming from both sides and each side want to make sure that they are going to survive. An understandable society action.

I draw a conclusion that as a result of the conflicts that Islams seem to perpetuate, resulting in refugees, certain elements in Western countries have had enough and this directly results in the rise of Nationalism.

To add. I have no issues with Muslims in my country. I exhibit a product at Home Improvement shows and one of them is the EID Shopping Festival where about 30 000 Muslims come shopping for Eid gifts. I have never met more humble, non-assertive and caring people as what I encounter over that 4 day period. Fortunately, the Muslim community in South Africa does not have the same radical outlook as the Middle Eastern Muslims. I may be wrong, but I'm yet to see any signs of it.

Is there a discussion available from this OP?



Trump's nationalism is more economic than cultural/religious. His push for "America First" is an example of this. If there were a cultural element to this, it'd be pointed more toward the Mexicans, not the very few Muslims within the States.

Regarding Western Europe, Islam is a competing perspective of civilization, one that is anti-liberal. Many Muslims and even Islamic scholars themselves will state frankly that they have a hard time giving rights to witches, atheists and homosexuals, for example. Thus, what you're seeing in Europe, in part, is a push back toward a competing, anti-Western ideology.
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Re: Rise of Nationalism in the West

#13  Postby Silent Mason » Mar 26, 2017 3:30 am

Keep It Real wrote:The narrative in the uk which supports nationalism isn't really focused around islam/muslims, it's more about resenting eastern european immigrants. It's more down to generic "they don't integrate/they don't speak the language/they drive down wages" xenophobia.


I don't see why we should consider those concerns xenophobic.
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Re: Rise of Nationalism in the West

#14  Postby Agrippina » Mar 26, 2017 7:15 am

I've often observed that, until now, we don't have problems with "radical Islam" "terrorism" in South Africa. Possibly it's the inclusiveness of our Constitution, and that we have a right to worship as we like, and no formal government religion. When they do have prayers, they're inter-denominational, so there's no favouritism. The biggest problem here is xenophobia against other Africans, not against other nationals, and that's because of the perception that they're "taking our jobs". South Africans don't care about an influx of Chinese people (well privileged white people whine about them) but if you're a Nigerian living in and running a "spaza" shop in Alexandra, you're taking your life in your hands. Because of our Constitution, there's no reason for anyone to threaten us with bombs because if you want to worship the big boogeyman on the mountain, you're free to do that, no one cares. If you want to make your wife and daughters walk around in black tents, big whoop, we don't care.

Nationalism in the west, I think it's just fear of "others". There might be an element of a fallout from what all of you have mentioned but when I look at what I see on Facebook, certainly among the Americans, they're not interested in anything that's not about their own country, and depending on their affiliation either for or against the current regime, or in Europe, if they're for Brexit, or in favour of right-wing politicians. And because they're not interested to learn, they fear anything that isn't what they perceive to be their own culture. A friend of mine who's lived in the US for 15 years, and who still has a bit of an accent, was told to "go home, or learn to speak American" recently, by someone she works with every day.

The ones who are for the regime are particularly nationalistic. They tell me to STFU about it, it's "not your business" apparently even though it's having an effect on all of us, and if there's fallout, it will affect all of us. They sometimes say outright that they don't respond to my posts about other countries because they're not interested in learning about other countries.

Americans who are against the regime might be polite about my posts that aren't about the people they hate in government, but not as much as they want the rest of us to be in awe of how awesome the USA was before the regime took over.

The pro-Brexiters are becoming a little more nationalistic than they were before, almost as if they've found a forum to express their xenophobia about the people who "won't integrate". I think the problem is with governments who instil fear when the make laws against burqas, or say that their language is compulsory. My experience of foreigners is that they eventually do learn the language, especially if their kids are in government schools where they have no option but to become fluent or they don't pass to the next grade. In my opinion, the idea that everyone wearing a burqa is carrying a bomb is fear-mongering. If women want to dress according to their religion, leave them alone. If people want to be called to prayer, leave them alone. If they won't learn the language, make the language part of the curriculum no matter where the kids go to school. Stop discriminating against foreigners, and introduce cultural diversity learning in schools.

I like this story showing how our kids really deal with diversity in their society (as opposed to the badly-behaved parents having a shouting match about their kids that I don't want to talk about).

When nationalism takes over, you get Apartheid. That was not a nice system.
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Re: Rise of Nationalism in the West

#15  Postby Corneel » Mar 26, 2017 12:38 pm

Adco wrote:There appears to be a rise in Nationalism in the West. (no citation available, only personal observations) Look at the recent US elections and what Trump is trying to do with his travel ban. Look at the recent mood in the Nederlands with Wilders and co. and how the Far Right is raising it's ugly head. Look at one of the driving factors for Brexit, "give us our country back". Now I may be confirmation biased but this is what I see from where I reside.

It seems to me that the main cause of this is the Middle East, where predominantly Muslim countries are or were in military conflict. A lot of the conflict is Islam based. ISIS for example. A result has been massive displacements of people and subsequently, refugees. Understandably, the refugees flee to countries where they are more free. I would as well.

Most people involved are merely being human. They either want to live safely in a place where they wont be killed or persecuted (the refugees), or the don't want to give up their freedoms, entitlements, ways of life etc. (the original residents) There is fear coming from both sides and each side want to make sure that they are going to survive. An understandable society action.

I draw a conclusion that as a result of the conflicts that Islams seem to perpetuate, resulting in refugees, certain elements in Western countries have had enough and this directly results in the rise of Nationalism.

To add. I have no issues with Muslims in my country. I exhibit a product at Home Improvement shows and one of them is the EID Shopping Festival where about 30 000 Muslims come shopping for Eid gifts. I have never met more humble, non-assertive and caring people as what I encounter over that 4 day period. Fortunately, the Muslim community in South Africa does not have the same radical outlook as the Middle Eastern Muslims. I may be wrong, but I'm yet to see any signs of it.

Is there a discussion available from this OP?

That it is pretty rich coming at a moment where South Africa is in the news for a slew of xenophobic attacks on (mainly) Nigerians and has in the past seen it lot of xenophobic violence against other SSA communities.
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Re: Rise of Nationalism in the West

#16  Postby Adco » Mar 26, 2017 1:08 pm

Corneel wrote:
Adco wrote:There appears to be a rise in Nationalism in the West. (no citation available, only personal observations) Look at the recent US elections and what Trump is trying to do with his travel ban. Look at the recent mood in the Nederlands with Wilders and co. and how the Far Right is raising it's ugly head. Look at one of the driving factors for Brexit, "give us our country back". Now I may be confirmation biased but this is what I see from where I reside.

It seems to me that the main cause of this is the Middle East, where predominantly Muslim countries are or were in military conflict. A lot of the conflict is Islam based. ISIS for example. A result has been massive displacements of people and subsequently, refugees. Understandably, the refugees flee to countries where they are more free. I would as well.

Most people involved are merely being human. They either want to live safely in a place where they wont be killed or persecuted (the refugees), or the don't want to give up their freedoms, entitlements, ways of life etc. (the original residents) There is fear coming from both sides and each side want to make sure that they are going to survive. An understandable society action.

I draw a conclusion that as a result of the conflicts that Islams seem to perpetuate, resulting in refugees, certain elements in Western countries have had enough and this directly results in the rise of Nationalism.

To add. I have no issues with Muslims in my country. I exhibit a product at Home Improvement shows and one of them is the EID Shopping Festival where about 30 000 Muslims come shopping for Eid gifts. I have never met more humble, non-assertive and caring people as what I encounter over that 4 day period. Fortunately, the Muslim community in South Africa does not have the same radical outlook as the Middle Eastern Muslims. I may be wrong, but I'm yet to see any signs of it.

Is there a discussion available from this OP?

That it is pretty rich coming at a moment where South Africa is in the news for a slew of xenophobic attacks on (mainly) Nigerians and has in the past seen it lot of xenophobic violence against other SSA communities.

How are the local xenophobic attacks related to the OP?

Sure there is xenophobia here. It is mainly local black people attacking other black people from certain African countries such as Nigeria, Congo, Zimbabwe etc. the attacks are directed mainly at shop owners and forgein workers inside predominantly black areas. It has nothing to do with Islam.
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Re: Rise of Nationalism in the West

#17  Postby Corneel » Mar 26, 2017 1:31 pm

Adco wrote:
Corneel wrote:
Adco wrote:There appears to be a rise in Nationalism in the West. (no citation available, only personal observations) Look at the recent US elections and what Trump is trying to do with his travel ban. Look at the recent mood in the Nederlands with Wilders and co. and how the Far Right is raising it's ugly head. Look at one of the driving factors for Brexit, "give us our country back". Now I may be confirmation biased but this is what I see from where I reside.

It seems to me that the main cause of this is the Middle East, where predominantly Muslim countries are or were in military conflict. A lot of the conflict is Islam based. ISIS for example. A result has been massive displacements of people and subsequently, refugees. Understandably, the refugees flee to countries where they are more free. I would as well.

Most people involved are merely being human. They either want to live safely in a place where they wont be killed or persecuted (the refugees), or the don't want to give up their freedoms, entitlements, ways of life etc. (the original residents) There is fear coming from both sides and each side want to make sure that they are going to survive. An understandable society action.

I draw a conclusion that as a result of the conflicts that Islams seem to perpetuate, resulting in refugees, certain elements in Western countries have had enough and this directly results in the rise of Nationalism.

To add. I have no issues with Muslims in my country. I exhibit a product at Home Improvement shows and one of them is the EID Shopping Festival where about 30 000 Muslims come shopping for Eid gifts. I have never met more humble, non-assertive and caring people as what I encounter over that 4 day period. Fortunately, the Muslim community in South Africa does not have the same radical outlook as the Middle Eastern Muslims. I may be wrong, but I'm yet to see any signs of it.

Is there a discussion available from this OP?

That it is pretty rich coming at a moment where South Africa is in the news for a slew of xenophobic attacks on (mainly) Nigerians and has in the past seen it lot of xenophobic violence against other SSA communities.

How are the local xenophobic attacks related to the OP?

Sure there is xenophobia here. It is mainly local black people attacking other black people from certain African countries such as Nigeria, Congo, Zimbabwe etc. the attacks are directed mainly at shop owners and forgein workers inside predominantly black areas. It has nothing to do with Islam.
Exactly. And still there is violent nationalism. So what might that tell you about the rise of Nationalism in the west.
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Re: Rise of Nationalism in the West

#18  Postby Adco » Mar 26, 2017 3:18 pm

Corneel wrote:
Adco wrote:
Corneel wrote:
Adco wrote:There appears to be a rise in Nationalism in the West. (no citation available, only personal observations) Look at the recent US elections and what Trump is trying to do with his travel ban. Look at the recent mood in the Nederlands with Wilders and co. and how the Far Right is raising it's ugly head. Look at one of the driving factors for Brexit, "give us our country back". Now I may be confirmation biased but this is what I see from where I reside.

It seems to me that the main cause of this is the Middle East, where predominantly Muslim countries are or were in military conflict. A lot of the conflict is Islam based. ISIS for example. A result has been massive displacements of people and subsequently, refugees. Understandably, the refugees flee to countries where they are more free. I would as well.

Most people involved are merely being human. They either want to live safely in a place where they wont be killed or persecuted (the refugees), or the don't want to give up their freedoms, entitlements, ways of life etc. (the original residents) There is fear coming from both sides and each side want to make sure that they are going to survive. An understandable society action.

I draw a conclusion that as a result of the conflicts that Islams seem to perpetuate, resulting in refugees, certain elements in Western countries have had enough and this directly results in the rise of Nationalism.

To add. I have no issues with Muslims in my country. I exhibit a product at Home Improvement shows and one of them is the EID Shopping Festival where about 30 000 Muslims come shopping for Eid gifts. I have never met more humble, non-assertive and caring people as what I encounter over that 4 day period. Fortunately, the Muslim community in South Africa does not have the same radical outlook as the Middle Eastern Muslims. I may be wrong, but I'm yet to see any signs of it.

Is there a discussion available from this OP?

That it is pretty rich coming at a moment where South Africa is in the news for a slew of xenophobic attacks on (mainly) Nigerians and has in the past seen it lot of xenophobic violence against other SSA communities.

How are the local xenophobic attacks related to the OP?

Sure there is xenophobia here. It is mainly local black people attacking other black people from certain African countries such as Nigeria, Congo, Zimbabwe etc. the attacks are directed mainly at shop owners and forgein workers inside predominantly black areas. It has nothing to do with Islam.
Exactly. And still there is violent nationalism. So what might that tell you about the rise of Nationalism in the west.

It tells me most probably that the rise of nationalism in the west isn't due to the rise of Islam.

If this is the case, my question has been answered. However, sitting in this part of the world in a more isolated by still mostly western environment, and looking north towards Europe and the US, and watching what is going on in the middle east, it makes my question more understandable, even if it's only to myself and that is why it was asked in the first place. I guess I'm not seeing the bigger picture.
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Re: Rise of Nationalism in the West

#19  Postby Agrippina » Mar 26, 2017 4:07 pm

Adco you're asking what is causing nationalism to rise the way it is. I pointed out that it's not Islam causing the problem, I didn't give a reason. Here's what I think. There are people who are increasingly gaining power in western countries, rightwingers who value their wealth, the power it brings, and their "elitist" culture. They don't want the masses to have political power, and if they keep them poor and desperate for work, then they, the wealthy, with stay in charge. They demonise the spread of globalism and people learning about other cultures, especially ones where the wealthy are not in charge. If they encourage their dependents to learn about the rest of the world, and to become educated beyond being able to do a job, they'll lose power, and thereby, wealth. So they push nationalism - us vs them. Us being the followers of the nationalism-inspiring oligarchs, and them being the "liberals" who want everyone to be well-educated, informed, educated, and covered by health care and other social benefits.

So where you see the rise of nationalism, you also see decreased standards, and levels of education, poverty, joblessness etc., all of this keeping the masses under control, voting for the people who promise them jobs, and the purity of their nation. They keep the "others" and especially the liberals out, and they keep control, and become even wealthier.
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Re: Rise of Nationalism in the West

#20  Postby romansh » Mar 26, 2017 4:59 pm

There is no single cause for anything never mind nationalism in the west, perhaps the exception of the big bang in this universe.
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