Talking to Christians about AGW

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Re: Talking to Christians about AGW

#121  Postby Thommo » Apr 28, 2018 8:09 am

Macdoc wrote:If you are an honest inquirer ...start here.
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/ar ... tart-here/


This looks like a great resource. :thumbup:
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Re: Talking to Christians about AGW

#122  Postby Keep It Real » Apr 28, 2018 11:56 am

Keep It Real wrote:Can I really be blamed for losing the plot like this when people say things to me like "don't break my wall"?


Ah yes, that would be between her and I strictly speaking. :coffee: ...oh hang on.... :cheers: ....no, :roll: ...no not that 1 either...:cheers: ;)
"If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear" - George Orwell
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Re: Talking to Christians about AGW

#123  Postby Chris Putnam » Apr 29, 2018 4:23 am

Recently I was reviewing the rules of the forum and fear that I have assisted in altering the course of the discussion , which is forbidden in the rules. The thread was originally about discussing AGW with Christians. I jumped in a few days ago with a link to a sermon by a famous evangelical preacher who probably represents the viewpoint of many Christians (certainly not all). Then I veered off course.

Thank you Thommo, Shagz and Macdoc for your great responses to my issues. I will keep looking into things. I was asked to document my comment about Al Gores book. Try this one and see what you think.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/ ... ruths.html

Like anything I post take it for what it is worth. "An innconvenient truth" is a book by a politician and he got rich from it. He also travels the world in a private jet putting up more pollution in a year than most will ever equal. And more time will tell if these predictions are accurate. I will take the time to examine the links you gave me.
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Re: Talking to Christians about AGW

#124  Postby Macdoc » Apr 29, 2018 4:41 am

You just keep up the right wing denier crap.

Al Gore was already rich.

Offsetting carbon for air travel costs peanuts ...I offset my entire carbon footprint including my air travel for a couple hundred dollars a year.

You don't know what the fuck you are talking about
You are swallowing right wing denier koolaid and making fossil fuel predators like Koch chuckle all the way to bank.

Why don't you fucking listen to the scientests instead of trotting out fossil fuel barons propaganda about people trying to and succeeding in engendering the move to a carbon neutral planet

Your head is so far up the deniers filthy carbon asshole you can't even get enough oxygen for your brain to work......wake the fuck up ....you've got ONE planet...and your skydaddy ain't gonna do squat if you fuck it up :nono:
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Re: Talking to Christians about AGW

#125  Postby Keep It Real » Apr 29, 2018 6:24 am

Not to mention the other components of the tantrum in the locality.
"If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear" - George Orwell
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Re: Talking to Christians about AGW

#126  Postby surreptitious57 » Apr 29, 2018 7:08 am

Keep It Real wrote:
Make Another Version

Stop expecting others to continually proof read your text for you
You are perfectly capable of doing it yourself without any help at all
You have a degree for Gods sake so have absolutely no bloody excuse
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Re: Talking to Christians about AGW

#127  Postby Shagz » Apr 29, 2018 8:53 am

Chris Putnam wrote:Recently I was reviewing the rules of the forum and fear that I have assisted in altering the course of the discussion , which is forbidden in the rules.

You are right about that. It was also a bit rude of us to go off topic so much. If you wish to continue, I suggest taking it to the climate denial thread in General Debunking.
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Re: Talking to Christians about AGW

#128  Postby SafeAsMilk » Apr 29, 2018 12:19 pm

To be fair, even the person who started this thread isn't talking about the topic either. As far as I can tell, he's just been babbling incoherently for two pages now.
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Re: Talking to Christians about AGW

#129  Postby Ken Fabian » May 01, 2018 2:01 am

Why did scientists 42 years ago think we were cooling the earth? And 12 years later the scientists were telling us the opposite was happening?


If a few scientist thought that we were cooling the Earth, a lot of other scientists did not.

Let me quote from the preface to a US National Academies of Sciences report from 1975 - "Understanding Climatic Change - a Program for Action" - a report in large part prompted by news media obsessing over (but not actually researching) science suggesting an excess of pollution could lead to global cooling -

“Unfortunately, we do not have a good quantitative understanding of our climate machine and what determines its course” - from National Academies of Sciences report,


https://ia801806.us.archive.org/7/items ... 00unit.pdf

Parts of the mass media obsessed over the potential for air pollution to trigger an ice age - well researched and balanced coverage of the state of science around this put aside for the sake of an exciting story - but there was no agreement amongst scientists studying climate about imminent global cooling; even at the time other papers were being published that concluded there was a greater and more near term likelihood of warming from rising CO2 levels.

I suspect the Global Cooling hype drew on the lingering concerns about Nuclear Winters to get greater media attention than it deserved. What it did do was prompt a lot more scientific efforts in gaining a good quantitative understand of our climate machine that lead to an understanding of what determines it's course.

Note that the "Program for Action" in the NAS report title does not refer to any actions to deal with global cooling - there was never any Intergovernmental Panel on Global Cooling; it refers to actions to improve science based understanding of climate and climate change. And it worked.
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Re: Talking to Christians about AGW

#130  Postby Ken Fabian » May 01, 2018 11:43 pm

I think discussions about AGW with the religious probably work best when talking about stewardship of the world we occupy and the ethics of activities that bring benefits but entail outside costs principally bourne by others (in terms of geography and in terms of time). What won't work is attacking their religiosity as a path towards winning their acceptance of climate science.

Perhaps portrayal of the finite limits of the world as an inbuilt test for the world's occupants - tests of observation, intelligence and ethics that can encompass both secular and religious concern, that tests our institutions as well as individuals, including governance and accountability as well as science and education; how we deal with scarcity other than by (ultimately unsustainable) endless development and growth that subsumes poverty within continuing glut that comes with accumulating externalised costs that ultimately exceed the benefits.

Whether it's in religious terms or not, it seems that humanity has, at least potentially, all that it needs to deal with problems like AGW - 'god given gifts' if you like - to foresee the consequences of our actions and weigh up our choices, with respect to accountability for our intergenerational responsibility to others for longer term externalised outcomes as well as our immediate needs.
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Re: Talking to Christians about AGW

#131  Postby Cito di Pense » May 07, 2018 4:33 pm

Macdoc wrote:
Offsetting carbon for air travel costs peanuts ...I offset my entire carbon footprint including my air travel for a couple hundred dollars a year.


Don't bet your entire travel budget on it:

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-44005013

A new study says global tourism accounts for 8% of carbon emissions, around three times greater than previous estimates.
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Re: Talking to Christians about AGW

#132  Postby Macdoc » May 07, 2018 4:52 pm

Umm you can offset your entire personal carbon footprint for about $150 a year ...if it costs more ...it's still tiny in relation to our travel budget.
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Re: Talking to Christians about AGW

#133  Postby Keep It Real » Jul 11, 2018 10:04 pm

Planning on distributing 100 copies of this edit at the anti-Trump rally in Briz tomoz. Fits nicely on 1 side of A4 with the title centered :thumbup:

Global Warming, Christianity and Donald Trump

Approximately eighteen months ago a couple of Jehovah's Witnesses knocked on my door: one woman in her twenties and one man in his forties. We engaged in a conversation which flipped around for a while and then I said, roughly: "one of my problems with some people's take on Christianity is that they tend to dismiss science a lot of the time. A good example of this is denying the reality of man-made global warming, about which the scientific community is pretty well unanimous. These so called Christians then make no attempt to help with that problem." The male Jehovah's Witness then replied: “That's the beauty of it: we haven't got to worry about that kind of thing because God will take care of it!”

Although of course this is not a Jehovah's Witness congregation it is apparent that the same problem exists across all denominations of Christianity, as seen most clearly in the US Republican Party's withdrawal from the Paris Climate Change Accord. Incidentally, the USA is the only country in the world to have withdrawn from that treaty. Donald Trump and his party are, of course, overwhelmingly deeply Christian, Christian in name anyway, even reinstating weekly Bible study groups in the White House for the President and his senior staff for the first time since the colonial era. Protestant Christianity is the dominant Christian flavour in the US, not Jehovah's Witness. I believe these so called Christians, who sit idly by smiling at the sky without a care in the world thinking they can just recline and relax in God's arms, are in error. What disappointing creatures we would be to God if we didn't try to do right by our fellow humans and, indeed, animals and the planet as a whole. I think it's pretty obvious how Jesus would lead by example on this issue, as with any other, tirelessly and selflessly labouring to alleviate the suffering of others and basically attempting to improve the situation in general. Who could possibly say that Jesus was lazy. 99.9% of the time we know the right thing to do without even having to think, as the Holy Spirit guides us, and that guidance need be followed at all times unless we are to be burdened with feelings of guilt and remorse, let alone any divine retribution which may strike like lightning if we do not follow the moral compass. Man-made climate change, also known as anthropogenic global warming (AGW for short), is one of the two most terrifyingly powerful threats to the wellbeing of mankind according to the late great Professor Stephen Hawking, as he wrote shortly before his passing. The other threat he identified is strong artificial intelligence, but that's off topic. Personally, a part of me would like to own a car and fly around visiting foreign countries, but the carbon emissions from such transport methods just don't sit well with me. Jet air plane travel, which dumps huge amounts of damaging emissions straight into the upper atmosphere is particularly damaging, as my university environmental economics professor taught us. The carbon emissions resulting from the manufacturing processes necessary in order to make cars and planes in the first place are also very substantial and damaging. As some of you may know, I am an agnostic although I see many very fine and praiseworthy things in Christianity. There is no reason to think that agnostics and atheists are the only people who should act to counter the spectre of man-made climate change however. In fact, nothing could or should be further from the truth if the example of Jesus is followed accurately as decent Christians know him. Please duplicate/spread this document. Internet?
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Re: Talking to Christians about AGW

#134  Postby surreptitious57 » Jul 11, 2018 11:29 pm

That second paragraph is way too chunky and will put people off reading it to the end
The bits highlighted in red are fluffy word salad and so really do not need to be there
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Re: Talking to Christians about AGW

#135  Postby Keep It Real » Jul 11, 2018 11:46 pm

Cut out a couple of sentences so managed to put one break in. Don't know what you're on about with the "highlighted in red" bit. There's no fluffy word salad in there at all. If you don't like it and care, as it would seem you do going by your comment, write a different version.

Global Warming, Christianity and Donald Trump

Approximately eighteen months ago a couple of Jehovah's Witnesses knocked on my door: one woman in her twenties and one man in his forties. We engaged in a conversation which flipped around for a while and then I said, roughly: "one of my problems with some people's take on Christianity is that they tend to dismiss science a lot of the time. A good example of this is denying the reality of man-made global warming, about which the scientific community is pretty well unanimous. These so called Christians then make no attempt to help with that problem." The male Jehovah's Witness then replied: “That's the beauty of it: we haven't got to worry about that kind of thing because God will take care of it!”

The same attitude exists across all denominations of Christianity to some extent, as seen most clearly in the US Republican Party's withdrawal from the Paris Climate Change Accord. Incidentally, the USA is the only country in the world to have withdrawn from that treaty. Donald Trump and his party are, of course, overwhelmingly deeply Christian, Christian in name anyway, even reinstating weekly Bible study groups in the White House for the President and his senior staff for the first time since the colonial era. Protestant Christianity is the dominant Christian flavour in the US, not Jehovah's Witness. I believe these so called Christians, who sit idly by smiling at the sky without a care in the world thinking they can just recline and relax in God's arms, are in error. What disappointing creatures we would be to God if we didn't try to do right by our fellow humans and, indeed, animals and the planet as a whole. I think it's pretty obvious how Jesus would lead by example on this issue, as with any other, tirelessly and selflessly labouring to alleviate the suffering of others and basically attempting to improve the situation in general. Who could possibly say that Jesus was lazy. 99.9% of the time we know the right thing to do without even having to think, as the Holy Spirit guides us, and that guidance need be followed at all times unless we are to be burdened with feelings of guilt and remorse, let alone any divine retribution which may strike like lightning if we do not follow the moral compass. Man-made climate change, also known as anthropogenic global warming (AGW for short), is one of the two most terrifyingly powerful threats to the wellbeing of mankind according to the late great Professor Stephen Hawking, as he wrote shortly before his passing.

Personally, a part of me would like to own a car and fly around visiting foreign countries, but the carbon emissions from such transport methods just don't sit well with me. Jet air plane travel, which dumps huge amounts of damaging emissions straight into the upper atmosphere is particularly damaging, as my university environmental economics professor taught us. The carbon emissions resulting from the manufacturing processes necessary in order to make cars and planes in the first place are also very substantial and damaging. I am an agnostic although I see many very fine and praiseworthy things in Christianity. There is no reason to think that agnostics and atheists are the only people who should act to counter the spectre of man-made climate change however. In fact, nothing could or should be further from the truth if the example of Jesus is followed accurately as decent Christians know him. Please duplicate/spread this document. Internet?
"If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear" - George Orwell
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Re: Talking to Christians about AGW

#136  Postby surreptitious57 » Jul 12, 2018 12:45 am

Global Warming and Christianity and Donald Trump

Approximately eighteen months ago a couple of Jehovahs Witnesses knocked on my door : one woman in her twenties and one man in his forties. We engaged in a conversation which flipped around for a while and then I said roughly one of my problems with some peoples take on Christianity is that they tend to dismiss science a lot of the time. A good example of this is denying the reality of man made global warming about which the scientific community is pretty well unanimous. These so called Christians then make no attempt to help with that problem. The male Jehovahs Witness then replied : That is the beauty of it : we havent got to worry about that kind of thing because God will take care of it

Although of course this is not a Jehovahs Witness congregation it is apparent that the same problem exists across all denominations of Christianity as seen most clearly in the US Republican Partys withdrawal from the Paris Climate Change Accord. Incidentally the USA is the only country in the world to have withdrawn from that treaty. Donald Trump and his party are of course overwhelmingly deeply Christian Christian in name anyway even reinstating weekly Bible study groups in the White House for the President and his senior staff for the first time since the colonial era. Protestant Christianity is the dominant Christian flavour in the US not Jehovahs Witness. I believe these so called Christians who sit idly by smiling at the sky without a care in the world thinking they can just recline and relax in Gods arms are in error. What disappointing creatures we would be to God if we didnt try to do right by our fellow humans and indeed animals and the planet as a whole. I think it is pretty obvious how Jesus would lead by example on this issue as with any other tirelessly and selflessly labouring to alleviate the suffering of others and basically attempting to improve the situation in general. Who could possibly say that Jesus was lazy [ ? ] 99 .9 per cent of the time we know the right thing to do without even having to think [ about it ] as the Holy Spirit guides us and that guidance need be followed at all times unless we are to be burdened with feelings of guilt and remorse let alone any divine retribution which may strike like lightning if we dont follow the moral compass. Man made climate change also known as anthropogenic global warming ( AGW for short ) is one of the two most terrifyingly powerful threats to the well being of mankind according to the late great Professor Stephen Hawking as he wrote shortly before his passing. The other threat he identified is strong artificial intelligence but that is off topic. Personally a part of me would like to own a car and fly around visiting foreign countries but the carbon emissions from such transport methods just dont sit well with me. Jet air plane travel which dumps huge amounts of damaging emissions straight into the upper atmosphere is particularly damaging as my university environmental economics professor taught us. The carbon emissions resulting from the manufacturing processes necessary in order to make cars and planes in the first place are also very substantial and damaging. As some of you may know I am an agnostic although I see many very fine and praiseworthy things in Christianity. There is no reason to think that agnostics and atheists are the only people who should act to counter the spectre of man made climate change however. In fact nothing could or should be further from the truth if the example of Jesus is followed accurately as decent Christians know him. Please duplicate / spread this document. Internet?
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Re: Talking to Christians about AGW

#137  Postby Hermit » Jul 12, 2018 1:21 am

Macdoc wrote:Umm you can offset your entire personal carbon footprint for about $150 a year ...if it costs more ...it's still tiny in relation to our travel budget.

So we can contribute to global warming as much as we please by buying a clear conscience at a rate of ten bucks per metric ton of CO² we add to the atmosphere. What a bargain!

Keep up the good work, Mac. The CO² you add with your gratuitous aeroplane trips and joyrides doesn't affect the environment if you put some alms into the poor-box.
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Re: Talking to Christians about AGW

#138  Postby surreptitious57 » Jul 12, 2018 1:24 am

Global Warming and Christianity and Donald Trump

Approximately eighteen months ago a couple of Jehovahs Witnesses knocked on my door. We engaged in conversation for a while and then I said that one of my problems with some peoples take on Christianity is that they tend to dismiss science a lot of the time. A good example of this is denying man made global warming about which the scientific community is pretty well unanimous. These so called Christians make no attempt to help with that problem. One of them then said that this was the beauty of it as they didnt have to worry about that kind of thing because God would take care of it instead

Although this is not a Jehovahs Witness congregation it is apparent that the same problem exists across all of Christianity as seen most clearly in the Republican Partys withdrawal from the Paris Climate Change Accord. The USA is the only country in the world to have withdrawn from that treaty. Donald Trump and his party are deeply Christian and he has even reinstated weekly Bible study groups in the White House for the first time since the colonial era. Protestant Christianity is now the dominant Christian flavour in the US . I believe these so called Christians are in error

What disappointing creatures we would be to God if we didnt try to do right by our fellow humans and the planet as a whole
It is obvious how Jesus would lead by example on this issue. He would tirelessly strive to alleviate the suffering of others and so attempt to improve the situation in general. No one could say he was lazy. Most of the time we know the right thing to do without even having to think about it as the Holy Spirit would guide us

Man made climate change also known as anthropogenic global warming ( AGW for short ) is one of the most powerful threats to the well being of mankind according to Stephen Hawking who wrote it shortly before his passing. Now a part of me would like to own a car and fly around the world but the carbon emissions dont sit very well with me. Jet travel which dumps huge amounts of damaging emissions straight into the upper atmosphere is particularly damaging. And emissions resulting from the manufacturing processes necessary to make cars and planes are very damaging too

Now some of you may know that I am agnostic although I see many fine and praiseworthy things in Christianity. There is no reason to think that agnostics and atheists are the only people who should act to counter the spectre of man made climate change however. In fact nothing could be further from the truth if the example of Jesus is followed

Please duplicate and / or spread this document as widely as possible
A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE : IT DOES NOT WORK UNLESS IT IS OPEN
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Re: Talking to Christians about AGW

#139  Postby surreptitious57 » Jul 12, 2018 1:40 am

A nice 23 line 6 paragraph rewrite compared to the original and heavy 30 line 2 paragraph wall of words
You going to remove all that word salad and save yourself the oxygen required to say it in the first place
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Re: Talking to Christians about AGW

#140  Postby Keep It Real » Jul 12, 2018 5:04 am

Hermit wrote:
Macdoc wrote:Umm you can offset your entire personal carbon footprint for about $150 a year ...if it costs more ...it's still tiny in relation to our travel budget.

So we can contribute to global warming as much as we please by buying a clear conscience at a rate of ten bucks per metric ton of CO² we add to the atmosphere. What a bargain!

Keep up the good work, Mac. The CO² you add with your gratuitous aeroplane trips and joyrides doesn't affect the environment if you put some alms into the poor-box.


Exactatruthly. I drowned 5 of my puppies yesterday but it's OK because I stopped my m8 from drowning 5 of his. :eh: :crazy:
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