Taxing Religion - Is Now An Opportune Time To Try?

With Churches Enmeshed In Sex and Child Problems, Can They be taxed?

Christianity, Islam, Other Religions & Belief Systems.

Moderators: kiore, The_Metatron, Blip

Taxing Religion - Is Now An Opportune Time To Try?

#1  Postby BrettA » Sep 29, 2021 7:20 pm

With churches reeling from past 'activities' including Sexual Abuses, the Deaths of hundreds of innocent children in "Residential Schools" and their unmarked graves in Canada, and I'm sure more issues that I don't know of, is it the time to push for fair taxation of all religions? I can't see a better time coming up any time soon!

Could taxing religion be an atheist-led world-wide initiative if there was adequate interest? I say, Yes. :coffee:

TaxChurch.jpg
Is NOW the time to initiate a 'Tax Religions" project?
TaxChurch.jpg (40.61 KiB) Viewed 1209 times
My Wiki Page (Contribs: photos & other): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:BrettA343
My Quora Profile, includes all posts, FYI: https://www.quora.com/profile/Brett-Aubrey-2
User avatar
BrettA
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 427
Age: 75
Male

Country: Canada
Canada (ca)
Print view this post


Re: Taxing Religion - Is Now An Opportune Time To Try?

#3  Postby Blackadder » Sep 30, 2021 10:08 am

You'd be up against one of the most well-funded, politically active lobbying sectors there is. Certainly in the US. Would love to see it happen, but doubt it will in our lifetimes. The greedy runs deep in religion and the stupid runs even deeper in American society that finances it.
That credulity should be gross in proportion to the ignorance of the mind that it enslaves, is in strict consistency with the principle of human nature. - Percy Bysshe Shelley
User avatar
Blackadder
RS Donator
 
Posts: 3833
Male

United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Taxing Religion - Is Now An Opportune Time To Try?

#4  Postby BrettA » Sep 30, 2021 4:04 pm

Blackadder wrote:You'd be up against one of the most well-funded, politically active lobbying sectors there is. Certainly in the US. Would love to see it happen, but doubt it will in our lifetimes. The greedy runs deep in religion and the stupid runs even deeper in American society that finances it.

Yeah, I figured that would be a criticism, but I think even a committed attempt would be worthwhile. And sure, if it failed to do anything in America, it could possibly do well in the UK, EU, Canada and Australia. I'm sure I'm not the only one who is critical of this unfair taxation throughout the world's countries and as I said, this seems to be an opportune time with all the troubles that some religious organizations are having, like the dramatic drop in congregants many or most are having.

I look at this and compare it to the legalization of weed - surely it looked like a tough (or tougher) battle at the start - and that effort has whole countries legalizing now. It raised the profile of weed as an innocuous or beneficial substance and I it would surprise me greatly if legalization didn't continue in the future (Canada's even considering the legalization of cocaine and other harder drugs).

So, with the extra income taxation of religion would bring to various governments, I see at least some support from some representatives in government almost right away, but who knows how much (I brought taxation up to my MP and he didn't want to 'go there', so I know we'll have resistance), but even if we get 5% of governments seriously considering it, it will make any future efforts that much more productive. And with the unexpected costs that Covid-19 has caused, maybe we'll get more support than even I hope for.
TaxReligion.jpg
TaxReligion.jpg (138.36 KiB) Viewed 1143 times
My Wiki Page (Contribs: photos & other): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:BrettA343
My Quora Profile, includes all posts, FYI: https://www.quora.com/profile/Brett-Aubrey-2
User avatar
BrettA
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 427
Age: 75
Male

Country: Canada
Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: Taxing Religion - Is Now An Opportune Time To Try?

#5  Postby Macdoc » Oct 03, 2021 9:22 pm

maybe this will hasten it along...

In 2019, Almost All of Facebook's Top Christian Pages Were Run By Foreign Troll Farms
relevantmagazine.com Internet Technology
19 of Facebook's top 20 pages for American Christians are run by Eastern European troll farms overseas, internal documents leaked to MIT Technology Review reveal. The data shows the vast spread of Facebook misinformation is largely powered by coordinated efforts among foreign professionals working together to spread provocative content in the United States.


not only leeches on their congregations but avoiding tax and spreading disinformation .... :nono:
Travel photos > https://500px.com/macdoc/galleries
EO Wilson in On Human Nature wrote:
We are not compelled to believe in biological uniformity in order to affirm human freedom and dignity.
User avatar
Macdoc
 
Posts: 17710
Age: 74
Male

Country: Canada/Australia
Australia (au)
Print view this post

Re: Taxing Religion - Is Now An Opportune Time To Try?

#6  Postby BrettA » Oct 03, 2021 10:58 pm

Thanks Macdoc, for the addition - I was hoping for more input :-)! And I think I have another reason to justify taxation of religions, unless there's some negative legal issues. ISTM that there must have been some major lack of:

Separation.jpg
Separation.jpg (128.8 KiB) Viewed 1098 times

...in that religions around the world seem to have sweetheart deals with most governments to avoid paying tax.

I'm hopeful that a few more people will find this an interesting project, and at first blush, I think we need > 12 bodies:
    * An experienced Project Manager, to organize this initiative to its end, whatever that end might look like.
    * Someone to solicit more help from sites like Rationalia.com (and many more).
    * A legal member to identify any possibly problematic activities, given the organization of the 'opposition'.
    * A graphics design member in case we want online 'posters' or similar materials.
    * A documentation specialist to manage the output from the team, including ZOOM meeting (or similar) minutes.
    * A fund-raiser, so we have enough money for things like ZOOM and other incidentals (application software?).
    * An accountant to ensure all financial things are done by the book.
    * A researcher (maybe several) to look into / document illegal/unethical church activities world-wide.
    * One or more software developers to create database systems to allow data control/distribution for the team.
    * One or more website developers to allow a 'presence' to the world for this initiative.
    * Eventually, at least one person for each taxation district (each country, and each state/province for larger countries).

I would welcome any changes to the above - some people probably have a lot more experience than me at doing this.

I've tried to think of a name for this 'project' and the only one so far is AFTR (pronounced AFTER) - Atheists For Taxing Religion, but the 'A' might scare people who might otherwise support us. Any other ideas? I hope I'm not getting to far into this ;-).

And if you haven't heard of the 'Say No To Atheism' AKA 'Global Prayer to End Atheism', mosey over to the Atheism section to have a look at how the Church is trying to obliterate us Atheists... by using (LOL) 'prayer'!
My Wiki Page (Contribs: photos & other): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:BrettA343
My Quora Profile, includes all posts, FYI: https://www.quora.com/profile/Brett-Aubrey-2
User avatar
BrettA
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 427
Age: 75
Male

Country: Canada
Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: Taxing Religion - Is Now An Opportune Time To Try?

#7  Postby BrettA » Oct 05, 2021 5:41 am

Hi, all... I've started to research this proposed project, one thread of which was to see if any other 'Tax the Church' projects were underway and it looks like some in Canada were being considered right after authorities discovered that hundreds of kids were buried in unmarked graves on Catholic-run school grounds in Western Canada. They used ground-penetrating radar to find the bodies. These schools were built to teach (indoctrinate?) the aboriginal kids who went there after being torn away from their families, to learn English, and of course other subjects, including probably, woo. See the link at bottom.

I'll also note that I've updated the list of the types of people needed for this type of 'project' in my previous email... numbers have gone from ~5 to a dozen people, not including representatives from each taxable region (countries, states, provinces, territories, etc.). Please take a gander and if you're interested in helping, please contact me by posting your interest, or by email or phone at 1-403-475-1600. It's a little early to define priorities, but from my POV, an experienced Project Manager is at the top of any list!

Thanks for any interest and I hope to hear from some of you :-).

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-taxing-todays-religious-institutions-because-of-residential-school/
BibleFUBAR.jpg
BibleFUBAR.jpg (60.02 KiB) Viewed 1069 times
My Wiki Page (Contribs: photos & other): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:BrettA343
My Quora Profile, includes all posts, FYI: https://www.quora.com/profile/Brett-Aubrey-2
User avatar
BrettA
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 427
Age: 75
Male

Country: Canada
Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: Taxing Religion - Is Now An Opportune Time To Try?

#8  Postby BrettA » Oct 07, 2021 5:00 pm

BrettA wrote:Hi, all... I hope to hear from some of you :-).

Hello, again. I've continued to look at religion's activities and the few cases of active opposition and one is of great interest to me. There's been a change of numbers of dead kids in Catholic-run schools (from 'hundreds' to more than 1,000! Can you imagine? And it was covered up for decades! These innocent children were ripped away from their families by the Canadian Government to remove their native tongue and teach them English, and to remove their cultural traditions and give them 'Canadian traditions', including our school subjects, and >1,000 failed to return home over the years! It could turn out to be thousands, as I don't think they're finished their search for the unmarked graves.

So now (well, last July, anyway) there was a movement to tax the Catholic Church, but I think that's not the best way to go. Singling out Catholics will be more difficult, I think, than going after all religions, or at least almost roughly the same amount of work as going after all. That way, the Catholics will not be able to scream that they are being persecuted alone. So here's the article I found, headlined as:

There Are Growing Calls to Finally Tax the Catholic Church
https://www.vice.com/en/article/m7ep4x/ ... lic-church

So, I hope that Blackadder's "Would love to see it happen" isn't the only positive sentiment on RatzSkep, and if others would love to see it happen, please let me know by your posts. Some things are worth the fight and I've fought City Hall here, and despite many people telling me I'd lose, I won! I'll gladly share my final report on that fight, if anyone is unsure of my skills - if you don't like what I've done so far, let me know that, too. And we still need a Project Manager for this. If any of you are members of other atheist forums, I'd welcome any copy/pasting of this thread to see if we can get a Project Manager and/or other bodies from another site. TTFN!
Supernatural.jpg
Supernatural.jpg (113.53 KiB) Viewed 1022 times
My Wiki Page (Contribs: photos & other): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:BrettA343
My Quora Profile, includes all posts, FYI: https://www.quora.com/profile/Brett-Aubrey-2
User avatar
BrettA
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 427
Age: 75
Male

Country: Canada
Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: Taxing Religion - Is Now An Opportune Time To Try?

#9  Postby BrettA » Oct 14, 2021 8:28 pm

BrettA wrote:Hello, again ... TTFN!

Well, fuck me gently... I thought a 'taxing religion' project would have me beating atheists off with a stick, but it's now a week and only one partially positive response, plus a poster. Time to quit trying, but if anyone reads this and is interested (especially as a Project Manager), please post or contact me at BrettA343@gmail.com. Thanks for your consideration. Cheers! - B.
FSM1.jpg
FSM1.jpg (123.32 KiB) Viewed 954 times
My Wiki Page (Contribs: photos & other): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:BrettA343
My Quora Profile, includes all posts, FYI: https://www.quora.com/profile/Brett-Aubrey-2
User avatar
BrettA
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 427
Age: 75
Male

Country: Canada
Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: Taxing Religion - Is Now An Opportune Time To Try?

#10  Postby Briton » Oct 15, 2021 8:52 am

I think it's a mistake to talk about taxing religion. A better strategy would be to campaign for them to be treated as other businesses.
User avatar
Briton
 
Posts: 4024

Country: UK
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: Taxing Religion - Is Now An Opportune Time To Try?

#11  Postby BrettA » Oct 15, 2021 9:37 pm

Briton wrote:I think it's a mistake to talk about taxing religion. A better strategy would be to campaign for them to be treated as other businesses.

Well, sure. To me, taxing them is the same thing, but if I'm wrong and they are treated differently than a business, I'd be all for "treating them as other businesses". So, what does that entail, other than taxation, Briton? And can you come up with a snappy line that is as understandable as "Tax Religion", or similar?

And thanks muchly for your input :-).
GodsMNoS.jpg
GodsMNoS.jpg (65.49 KiB) Viewed 920 times

TRTBR.jpg
TRTBR.jpg (232.77 KiB) Viewed 920 times
My Wiki Page (Contribs: photos & other): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:BrettA343
My Quora Profile, includes all posts, FYI: https://www.quora.com/profile/Brett-Aubrey-2
User avatar
BrettA
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 427
Age: 75
Male

Country: Canada
Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: Taxing Religion - Is Now An Opportune Time To Try?

#12  Postby Briton » Oct 16, 2021 3:58 pm

BrettA wrote:
Briton wrote:I think it's a mistake to talk about taxing religion. A better strategy would be to campaign for them to be treated as other businesses.

Well, sure. To me, taxing them is the same thing, but if I'm wrong and they are treated differently than a business, I'd be all for "treating them as other businesses". So, what does that entail, other than taxation, Briton? And can you come up with a snappy line that is as understandable as "Tax Religion", or similar?

And thanks muchly for your input :-).
GodsMNoS.jpg

TRTBR.jpg


I'll work on it...do you want a jingle as well?
User avatar
Briton
 
Posts: 4024

Country: UK
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: Taxing Religion - Is Now An Opportune Time To Try?

#13  Postby BrettA » Oct 16, 2021 10:52 pm

Briton wrote:I'll work on it...do you want a jingle as well?

LOL... Are you being snarky about a jingle? It had never occurred to me to have a jingle, but sure, if you can :-).

And thanks for your "I'll work on it", too! I'll get back on this now, as well. Anyone else 'want in'? Cheers, Brett

AllBorn.jpg
AllBorn.jpg (57.86 KiB) Viewed 899 times
My Wiki Page (Contribs: photos & other): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:BrettA343
My Quora Profile, includes all posts, FYI: https://www.quora.com/profile/Brett-Aubrey-2
User avatar
BrettA
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 427
Age: 75
Male

Country: Canada
Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: Taxing Religion - Is Now An Opportune Time To Try?

#14  Postby BrettA » Oct 19, 2021 4:49 am

BrettA wrote: I'll get back on this now, as well. Anyone else 'want in'? Cheers, Brett

So, the death toll in Canada's Catholic-run Residential Schools (and estimates) keeps creeping upward and Google tells us:

"An exact number of school-related deaths remains unknown due to incomplete records from negligence. The Truth and Reconciliation Commission Report estimates the number of unmarked graves to be 3,200."

Additionally, Scientific American has an article entitled: .Canada's Residential Schools Were a Horror.. See:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/canadas-residential-schools-were-a-horror/
TaxRasB.jpg
TaxRasB.jpg (180.12 KiB) Viewed 870 times
My Wiki Page (Contribs: photos & other): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:BrettA343
My Quora Profile, includes all posts, FYI: https://www.quora.com/profile/Brett-Aubrey-2
User avatar
BrettA
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 427
Age: 75
Male

Country: Canada
Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: Taxing Religion - Is Now An Opportune Time To Try?

#15  Postby Calilasseia » Oct 27, 2021 7:27 pm

The big problem I foresee with taxing the churches, comes under the heading "no taxation without representation".

Of course, we know that churches have disproportionate representation without taxation, and engage in at times underhand lobbying to preserve their privileges (including their privileged access to the political machinery), but the moment they're subject to taxation, their interference in the political process will simply be even more duplicitous and egregious.

Though of course the lobbying problem, and its inherent subversion of democracy to plutocracy, isn't unique to the churches. Solve the lobbying problem first, and you'll remove much of the capacity for damage that mythology fanboyism can inflict once you do start taxing the churches.

I would suggest further, that a system of penalties be introduced, to punish organisations spreading potentially lethal misinformation, or pushing discriminatory agendas, including provisions that they are forbidden to recoup those penalties through tapping the rubes for more money.
Signature temporarily on hold until I can find a reliable image host ...
User avatar
Calilasseia
RS Donator
 
Posts: 22250
Age: 60
Male

Country: England
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Taxing Religion - Is Now An Opportune Time To Try?

#16  Postby romansh » Oct 27, 2021 7:48 pm

Calilasseia wrote:The big problem I foresee with taxing the churches, comes under the heading "no taxation without representation".

In theory corporations "are" taxed and they have no representation as such. (other than lobbying as you point out)

Probably the biggest problem is the loopholes in taxation of the corporation and perhaps senior executives (not an expert here). Probably the biggest threat or promise a corporation can make is moving its tax base (aka as the workers) to another jurisdiction.
"That's right!" shouted Vroomfondel, "we demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"
User avatar
romansh
 
Posts: 2867

Country: BC Can (in the woods)
Print view this post

Re: Taxing Religion - Is Now An Opportune Time To Try?

#17  Postby BrettA » Oct 28, 2021 7:33 am

romansh wrote:
Calilasseia wrote:The big problem I foresee with taxing the churches, comes under the heading "no taxation without representation".
In theory corporations "are" taxed and they have no representation as such. (other than lobbying as you point out)

Probably the biggest problem is the loopholes in taxation of the corporation and perhaps senior executives (not an expert here). Probably the biggest threat or promise a corporation can make is moving its tax base (aka as the workers) to another jurisdiction.

Thanks for your input, both; I've got a hole in my understanding of taxation, and if this goes ahead, we obviously need a tax expert as well (1 per country?), assuming neither of you are experts - and Romansh has indicated he isn't. AISI, we still need a Project Manager and (s)he can start putting together a project plan with anyone's help if they're interested (me, maybe Cali, Romansh, Hack, Blackadder - anyone who has expressed an interest). It would be however much time individuals could spare. Does anyone know if someone like Microsoft might provide free software for an effort like this?

Regarding moving its tax base (and workers), I don't yet see an issue, partly because I'm hoping for a world-wide effort so there may be few places to move to, and partly because I think that the Church really needs to stay in the countries they are in or they'd lose a ton of support. But I'm no expert either,

BTW, Quora - where I've been spending much time over the last 10 months answering 4,100+ questions - also has raised a Tax Religion issue, so maybe we can combine efforts and bodies. Just a thought. And if anyone is a Rationalia member, posting a notice or a link to this thread, they might help get more bodies, too. Thoughts?
My Wiki Page (Contribs: photos & other): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:BrettA343
My Quora Profile, includes all posts, FYI: https://www.quora.com/profile/Brett-Aubrey-2
User avatar
BrettA
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 427
Age: 75
Male

Country: Canada
Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: Taxing Religion - Is Now An Opportune Time To Try?

#18  Postby romansh » Oct 28, 2021 7:00 pm

Living in rural BC I have a bit of a dilemma ... Generally the charity donations I make (well my wife makes if the truth be known) for the most part we get tax relief on. But being in rural Canada the local stuff to help the poor etc is in effect done through local churches etc (or at least a lot is done). So I would be loathe for that money to be taxed.

And as to moving the tax base to other countries ... while this is a factor for sure, I had in the back of my mind from state to state or in our case province to province. But the demographics and geography in Canada make Ontario king.
"That's right!" shouted Vroomfondel, "we demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"
User avatar
romansh
 
Posts: 2867

Country: BC Can (in the woods)
Print view this post

Re: Taxing Religion - Is Now An Opportune Time To Try?

#19  Postby BrettA » Oct 30, 2021 2:07 am

romansh wrote:Living in rural BC I have a bit of a dilemma ... Generally the charity donations I make (well my wife makes if the truth be known) for the most part we get tax relief on. But being in rural Canada the local stuff to help the poor etc is in effect done through local churches etc (or at least a lot is done). So I would be loathe for that money to be taxed.

And as to moving the tax base to other countries ... while this is a factor for sure, I had in the back of my mind from state to state or in our case province to province. But the demographics and geography in Canada make Ontario king.

Sorry, Romansh, but that's getting into the details of taxation and just like "Treat religion as any other business!" to me that implies that taxation wouldn't apply to charity-related monies. Most large (and many smaller) businesses do some tax-exempt charity work and I agree that that should not change for biz or church.

But a big one that will change for churches is property tax. I suspect that just like is happening now in cities in Canada, and presumably elsewhere that church congregants are dropping in number, churches will be sold and turned into condos, coffee shops or whatever, but it will happen much faster after churches need to pay property tax. Until we - if thus thing goes ahead - get a tax expert and maybe an accountant, I have no clue what other taxes might apply to a 'Tax Religion" effort. Does that help alleviate your concerns?

Re your final paragraph, if we 'go for' all provinces and the Feds, I hope there will be no issues with Ontario. It obviously will make a monstrous difference if we get little support from the population at large. And your first question, above, makes it clear to me that we need to have all our ducks in a row before we go public (as much as is reasonably possible, anyway).
My Wiki Page (Contribs: photos & other): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:BrettA343
My Quora Profile, includes all posts, FYI: https://www.quora.com/profile/Brett-Aubrey-2
User avatar
BrettA
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 427
Age: 75
Male

Country: Canada
Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: Taxing Religion - Is Now An Opportune Time To Try?

#20  Postby BrettA » Jul 19, 2022 1:17 pm

Eight months has gone by since my last post here, and while I get upvotes for many 'Tax Religion' posts, no one has contacted me here wanting serious work on this taxation problem. I'd still welcome help because it won't happen with me alone and I still need a Project Manager (PM) to keep things together and move them forward :-).

In my opening post, I mentioned hundreds of school kids dying at residential schools in Canada, mostly run by Catholics, and that figure has grown over time and stands now at around 6,000 kids buried without a marker or any ceremony at all. Frankly, I have my doubts about the 6,000 number, but we'll see how it holds over time!

Interestingly, the Pope is coming to Canada in a week or so to address this matter, and people here hope that he'll have something more tangible than just an apology. If anyone with PM skills wants to take the bull by the horns and lead this attempt of a project, please post an answer or message me :-). B-bye for now. :coffee:
My Wiki Page (Contribs: photos & other): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:BrettA343
My Quora Profile, includes all posts, FYI: https://www.quora.com/profile/Brett-Aubrey-2
User avatar
BrettA
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 427
Age: 75
Male

Country: Canada
Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Next

Return to Theism

Who is online

Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 2 guests