As a secularist and atheist I have many issues with theism and in particular organised religion. But it occurred to me that one issue bugs me above all else. That is the arrogance of a belief in the Abrahamic God. What I mean by this is the belief that the entirety of existence was created for the human race. The observable universe is almost fourteen billion lights years across. Our current cosmic expansion could theoretically be infinite. And there be even more planes to existence than that. The universe could be infinite in infinite directions, even directions we cannot conceive of. And the Abrahamic faiths claim that all this was created for us. That we are so utterly special that all this exists as our playground.

I do not doubt that theists will claim that atheists are arrogant. And some of us definitely are. But none of us make such a disgustingly egotistical claim.

How can Abrahamists take themselves seriously in this regard?

Their arrogance dismays me significantly less than their violence. I can live with arrognace.

MacIver wrote:What I mean by this is the belief that the entirety of existence was created for the human race. The observable universe is almost fourteen billion lights years across. Our current cosmic expansion could theoretically be infinite. And there be even more planes to existence than that. The universe could be infinite in infinite directions, even directions we cannot conceive of. And the Abrahamic faiths claim that all this was created for us. That we are so utterly special that all this exists as our playground.

Actually, don't they believe that in the end, it's all for God's own pleasure? (with all the ass-kissing he demands and whatnot)

Also, I used to believe (I was a baptist) that the unending size of the universe was a testimony of the infinite ability of god. Essentially it was god showing off what a big guy he is.

Plus an infinite amount of humans living infinitely long lives (had those two not eating the wrong fruit) need an infinite universe. Gotta love being a theist, you can just make stuff up and sound smug.

trubble76 wrote:Their arrogance dismays me significantly less than their violence. I can live with arrognace.

But violence stemming from peoples' opinions isn't merely a religious phenomenon. People commit horrific acts because they think their political or social beliefs justify them. For example the modern trend of suicide bombings were started by the Tamil Tigers. A group who whilst they had religious connotations were more strongly fuelled by cultural and political intentions.

And I think Scar made a good point that religious people's violence stems from their arrogant beliefs.

There are many violent religious people, but there are also many non-violent ones. So not all of them commit awful acts. However, every Christian, Muslim and Jew on the planet believes that the entirety of existence was created for the human race. The belief of such monumental egotistical proportions that I can't get my head around it. Although personally I am a sceptical atheist, there are many supernatural or "extra-scientific" beliefs I can at least understand the logic or reasoning behind despite me disagreeing with them.

But this Abrahamic belief, a belief so central to the lives of the vast majority of people living west and north of the Indian subcontinent is totally alien to me. I've stated on this forum before that I don't remember loosing my faith, that when I was a child I believed in God but by the time I was in my mid-teens I no longer did. I however feel that this confusion over such a disgustingly arrogant core belief must of played a part in it.

JoeB wrote:Actually, don't they believe that in the end, it's all for God's own pleasure? (with all the ass-kissing he demands and whatnot)

Also, I used to believe (I was a baptist) that the unending size of the universe was a testimony of the infinite ability of god. Essentially it was god showing off what a big guy he is.

Plus an infinite amount of humans living infinitely long lives (had those two not eating the wrong fruit) need an infinite universe. Gotta love being a theist, you can just make stuff up and sound smug.

None of this really changes my point though.

That God created the entirety of existence, the entirety of time, of matter, of energy for us. An incredibly flawed and rather pathetic race of jumped-up apes who've spent their whole history killing each other and destroying their planet.

How arrogant must one be accept this as an essential truth?

During a discussion I had with a Christian he claimed the stars existed only in order for us to navigate. Stupid cunt.

MacIver wrote:

JoeB wrote:Actually, don't they believe that in the end, it's all for God's own pleasure? (with all the ass-kissing he demands and whatnot)

Also, I used to believe (I was a baptist) that the unending size of the universe was a testimony of the infinite ability of god. Essentially it was god showing off what a big guy he is.

Plus an infinite amount of humans living infinitely long lives (had those two not eating the wrong fruit) need an infinite universe. Gotta love being a theist, you can just make stuff up and sound smug.

None of this really changes my point though.

That God created the entirety of existence, the entirety of time, of matter, of energy for us. An incredibly flawed and rather pathetic race of jumped-up apes who've spent their whole history killing each other and destroying their planet.

How arrogant must one be accept this as an essential truth?

Well I think many christians believe the universe mightn't have been made just for us, but mainly for god himself, and that we can live in this universe for no other reason than to stroke his ego (sorry, to have "a personal relationship" with 'm). Why would god make something as flawed as us humans? I Dunno.

I see your point Joe. But Abrahamists think that we are something very special in God's eye. That although existence exists at his whim, it is for us to enjoy. Why would God need to create the universe if not solely for us? Surely God would be happy on his own in pre-existence (whatever the fuck that means).

True, it's completely ridiculous. Like a timeless changeless being deciding to create the universe must be a being that's changed through time otherwise it can't ever come to the decision to create the universe. You can't explain that.

I know what you mean MacIver. I've heard it said that there can't be intelligent life elsewhere in the universe because the perfect sacrifice of Jesus wouldn't be perfect if there were beings who missed it by quite a few light years.

I also find moral absolutism particularly arrogant. Why can't you claim your own opinions rather than expecting your personal preferences to be part of the fabric of reality?

Or, for that matter, see any given personal preference as an affront. Even your own, if there is even a slight bit of disagreement with the Bible.

MacIver wrote:As a secularist and atheist I have many issues with theism and in particular organised religion. But it occurred to me that one issue bugs me above all else. That is the arrogance of a belief in the Abrahamic God. What I mean by this is the belief that the entirety of existence was created for the human race. The observable universe is almost fourteen billion lights years across. Our current cosmic expansion could theoretically be infinite. And there be even more planes to existence than that. The universe could be infinite in infinite directions, even directions we cannot conceive of. And the Abrahamic faiths claim that all this was created for us. That we are so utterly special that all this exists as our playground.

I do not doubt that theists will claim that atheists are arrogant. And some of us definitely are. But none of us make such a disgustingly egotistical claim.

How can Abrahamists take themselves seriously in this regard?

Actually, do to expansion, the observable universe is 93 billion light years across.

Oldskeptic wrote:

MacIver wrote:As a secularist and atheist I have many issues with theism and in particular organised religion. But it occurred to me that one issue bugs me above all else. That is the arrogance of a belief in the Abrahamic God. What I mean by this is the belief that the entirety of existence was created for the human race. The observable universe is almost fourteen billion lights years across. Our current cosmic expansion could theoretically be infinite. And there be even more planes to existence than that. The universe could be infinite in infinite directions, even directions we cannot conceive of. And the Abrahamic faiths claim that all this was created for us. That we are so utterly special that all this exists as our playground.

I do not doubt that theists will claim that atheists are arrogant. And some of us definitely are. But none of us make such a disgustingly egotistical claim.

How can Abrahamists take themselves seriously in this regard?

Actually, do to expansion, the observable universe is 93 billion light years across.

Good point. I stand corrected.

No theists here wish to wish to tackle my argument?

MacIver wrote:As a secularist and atheist I have many issues with theism and in particular organised religion. But it occurred to me that one issue bugs me above all else. That is the arrogance of a belief in the Abrahamic God. What I mean by this is the belief that the entirety of existence was created for the human race. The observable universe is almost fourteen billion lights years across. Our current cosmic expansion could theoretically be infinite. And there be even more planes to existence than that. The universe could be infinite in infinite directions, even directions we cannot conceive of. And the Abrahamic faiths claim that all this was created for us. That we are so utterly special that all this exists as our playground.

I do not doubt that theists will claim that atheists are arrogant. And some of us definitely are. But none of us make such a disgustingly egotistical claim.

How can Abrahamists take themselves seriously in this regard?

What makes you think that the entirety of existence was created for us on the Abrahamic faith?

Mick wrote:What makes you think that the entirety of existence was created for us on the Abrahamic faith?

Everything I know about Christianity, Islam and Judaism.

Do they not teach that humankind is very special to God? In fact the most special of all His creations?

Do they not also state that God is the creator of everything other than God?

And what use would a material universe be to a omniscient, omnipotent spiritual being such as Yahweh?

Any way I look at it, even if you want to argue that God created the universe for some other reason than solely a place for us to live in, the monotheistic Abrahamic faith systems have at their core that humankind is the single most special phenomenon in all of existence other than the Creator. This self-righteous, self-important postulating is something I find hugely detestable.

Even if we suppose that god created everything other than himself and that we are his favorite and special to him, it does not follow that he made the entirety of existence for us.

MacIver wrote:As a secularist and atheist I have many issues with theism and in particular organised religion. But it occurred to me that one issue bugs me above all else. That is the arrogance of a belief in the Abrahamic God. What I mean by this is the belief that the entirety of existence was created for the human race. The observable universe is almost fourteen billion lights years across. Our current cosmic expansion could theoretically be infinite. And there be even more planes to existence than that. The universe could be infinite in infinite directions, even directions we cannot conceive of. And the Abrahamic faiths claim that all this was created for us. That we are so utterly special that all this exists as our playground.


I do not doubt that theists will claim that atheists are arrogant. And some of us definitely are. But none of us make such a disgustingly egotistical claim.

How can Abrahamists take themselves seriously in this regard?

To answer one point raised in the thread, Xians (and I'm sure Jews and Muslims can answer for themselves) can be pretty sure that humanity is an element of the reasoning behind creation, on account of that nasty business involving God, nails and a couple of large bits of wood a while ago. The prologue to John, in expressing Jesus as the divine logos behind the creation of the universe, the same logos as got nailed up (IMHO), links humanity intimately to God's creative purposes.

Am I saying the universe was created for humanity? Not as such.

What were God's creative reasons, then? As I am standing accused of breathtaking arrogance, I don't wish to compound things by claiming to know the mind of God. Guessing the purposes and motivation of the transcendent God is always going to be worse than tricky.

The observable universe is almost fourteen billion lights years across.

Some research on these sorts of cosmic based theological questions you might find helpful.