The best arguments for strong atheism

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Re: The best arguments for strong atheism

#41  Postby redwhine » Dec 26, 2011 12:26 pm

Jireh wrote:
chairman bill wrote:
Nope. You're asking for positive reasons for not believing in something.


Nope. I am asking for a explanation, how our universe can come into existence, or exist forever by its own.

Good luck on that one. god can't explain that neither (without special pleading of course; 'god is eternal and never came into existence.It has always benn there.' Well, then you've set a precedence that things don't need to come into existence. If that can apply to god, it can apply to the universe too.)
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Re: The best arguments for strong atheism

#42  Postby UnderConstruction » Dec 26, 2011 12:26 pm

Jireh wrote:
Animavore wrote:All through man's history natural explanations have always superceded supernatural explanations.


And what explanations are these, exactly ?


I'm sorry, I thought you wanted to avoid discussion of one theology or another. :ask:
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Re: The best arguments for strong atheism

#43  Postby blindfaith » Dec 26, 2011 12:29 pm

jireh said

superficial and annoying.


yes i agree, religion is like this, worse in many ways actually
The best explanation for the absence of convincing reasons for god's existence is god's nonexistence

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Re: The best arguments for strong atheism

#44  Postby I.C.37 » Dec 26, 2011 12:40 pm

Jireh wrote:
I.C.37 wrote:The main argument for strong atheism would be that there is absolutely no sane reason to call any (hypothetical or real) entity "a god." The god-concept itself has no rational basis.

Let's say, for the sake of the argument, that I go in my laboratory and create a universe (see wikipedia: the simulation hypothesis.) That universe would be as real to its inhabitants as ours is to us. I can control, modify and intervene in this universe as I please, performing miracles and whatnot.

Do I become a god? Would you consider me a god? Should I consider myself a god?

You will probably answer "no" to all 3 questions, in which case it doesn't make sense for the inhabitants of my universe to call me a god either, because obviously I'm not one.

In other words, I don't claim there are no gods. Instead I claim that the words "god", "deity", "divine being" and so on, have no meaning and should be dismissed as archaic and outdated concepts.


In what way or kind does naturalism stand on rational basis ?

Am I not natural? How did you answer my 3 questions?

It's sad that you've dismissed my argument wholesale and posted another question as an answer. Should I conclude that you're not interested in a discussion, but only in asking questions?

Also you went off topic by shifting the goalposts and asking for a defense of naturalism. Congratulations on your red herring: I am natural, my argument stands.
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Re: The best arguments for strong atheism

#45  Postby smudge » Dec 26, 2011 12:47 pm

There is no evidence for the existence of any god. There are no valid reasons to believe a god exists, only assertions that others would 'like it to be so'. This being the case 'god belief' is on a par with any other idea anyone can come up with based on imagination, fantasy or desire. I can come up with far more appealing fantasies (should I find time to waste on such things) thanks very much.
Add to this that existence of god would mean the observable universe would show the hand of such a being in its construction; it doesn't. There is no role for such a being. If a being of relatively god-like power did exist (which I do not entirely rule out) it would not be a god in the usual religious sense as the moral requirements make it internally contradictory.
So; in the usual sense of the definition there is/are no god or gods.
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Re: The best arguments for strong atheism

#46  Postby UnderConstruction » Dec 26, 2011 12:49 pm

Please present the reasons, which most convince you strong afairyism is true. Base it on a positive arguments , not on a negative ( Peter Pan is garbage etc..... )
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Re: The best arguments for strong atheism

#47  Postby UnderConstruction » Dec 26, 2011 12:53 pm

Jireh wrote:
do you believe dark matter exists ? science does, despite the fact it has never been observed.


Ah yes, the "you believe in one irrational thing, so why not believe in my irrational thing?" argument. How compelling. :roll:

Can't raise your position up to theirs, so try and drag theirs down to you, eh Jireh? :ask:
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Re: The best arguments for strong atheism

#48  Postby LucidFlight » Dec 26, 2011 12:54 pm

UnderConstruction wrote:
Jireh wrote:
Animavore wrote:All through man's history natural explanations have always superceded supernatural explanations.


And what explanations are these, exactly ?


I'm sorry, I thought you wanted to avoid discussion of one theology or another. :ask:

If I may...

The natural explanation for lightning, for example. :)
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Re: The best arguments for strong atheism

#49  Postby Ihavenofingerprints » Dec 26, 2011 1:12 pm

Jireh wrote:
Ihavenofingerprints wrote:Religions were entirely made up by humans. People who lived thousands of years ago couldn't explain many aspects of reality. Everything from the night sky to existence itself needed to be explained (because humans are curious), and the best/easiest answers were probably supernatural ones.

Just look at how many religions there are. Each one stemming from a different tribe/community that needed answers, and settled for bullshit ones. Also, one might say "gravity is just a concept created by humans" - Yes, but natural philosophers/scientists came to the conclusion that gravity exists through a logical and reasonable process, following the evidence where it takes them. We can repeat their experiments today and confirm their findings.

The people that came up with (today's main) religious myths lived thousands of years ago and probably didn't know much about the world. It's extremely unlikely that they came to their conclusions through a logical and reasonable process IMO.

Anyway, thats my 5 minute rant. Feel free to take it apart.


Base it on a positive arguments , not on a negative ( the bible is garbage etc..... )


Thats absolute nonsense. There are so many positive claims in there I don't know where to start. On reflection, I could probably start an argument with myself on some of those points (if I really wanted).

I thought there was something fishy about the OP when I first saw it. Turns out you just want to pick and choose what you respond to, and wave away the stuff you don't want to address as a negative claim.
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Re: The best arguments for strong atheism

#50  Postby UnderConstruction » Dec 26, 2011 1:24 pm

LucidFlight wrote:
UnderConstruction wrote:
Jireh wrote:

And what explanations are these, exactly ?


I'm sorry, I thought you wanted to avoid discussion of one theology or another. :ask:

If I may...

The natural explanation for lightning, for example. :)


See Jireh, another example of a positive claim of science that contradicts a positive claim of religion. But the fact that you reject or ignore things like this highlights the double standards in operation when you say things like this:

Jireh wrote:
chairman bill wrote:
Nope. You're asking for positive reasons for not believing in something.


Nope. I am asking for a explanation, how our universe can come into existence, or exist forever by its own.


After all, what are you asking for he if not a naturalistic explanation to compete with the claims of religion? What are you asking for if not a reason why religion is wrong on this point?

So it seems you are even having trouble making up your mind what sort of reasons you are willing to permit. :roll:
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Re: The best arguments for strong atheism

#51  Postby John P. M. » Dec 26, 2011 1:52 pm

Jireh wrote:
John P. M. wrote:

But you can't have this conversation without soon getting into one theology or other.


I think we actually can. Just answer my initial question. its not about theology, but about strong atheism, and its reasons.


My point was that an undefined god is inconsequential and would for all intents and purposes not exist even if it does.
The only way you can break out of that, is by claiming you do have knowledge of the properties and plans and personality and whatnot of this god. And that claim will come from some theology or other.

The undefined god, being of no consequence even if it exists, is no "threat" to strong atheism; a strong atheist would have all rights to dismiss it. And the undefined god is of no consolation to you either. Only when you define it do you get to where you make positive claims, which can then be met with counter claims. But once that has begun, you have gotten into a theology, as I said. An undefined god isn't even a creator god. You start from scratch. You have to fill in what you think this entity is, and why. And you don't get far in defining it, if all you have to go by is the natural world, and no theology whatsoever.
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Re: The best arguments for strong atheism

#52  Postby Jireh » Dec 26, 2011 2:21 pm

UnderConstruction wrote:

In terms of positive claims though, it can be positive claims that lead us to reject the claims of religion. Such as the one often heard that the Earth is approximately 6-10K years old.


that is just one interpretation given. There are old earth creationists. So that is not a good point to deduce strong atheism.
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Re: The best arguments for strong atheism

#53  Postby Jireh » Dec 26, 2011 2:23 pm

redwhine wrote:
Jireh wrote:
chairman bill wrote:
Nope. You're asking for positive reasons for not believing in something.


Nope. I am asking for a explanation, how our universe can come into existence, or exist forever by its own.

Good luck on that one. god can't explain that neither (without special pleading of course; 'god is eternal and never came into existence.It has always benn there.' Well, then you've set a precedence that things don't need to come into existence. If that can apply to god, it can apply to the universe too.)


Its not special pleasing. Ones that the hypotheses of a eternal universe was predominant until the ninteenths century.
Modern scientific research leads us to believe, the universe is not eternal, but had a beginning with the Big Bang.
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Re: The best arguments for strong atheism

#54  Postby Jireh » Dec 26, 2011 2:23 pm

UnderConstruction wrote:
Jireh wrote:
Animavore wrote:All through man's history natural explanations have always superceded supernatural explanations.


And what explanations are these, exactly ?


I'm sorry, I thought you wanted to avoid discussion of one theology or another. :ask:


natrualism has what exactly to do with theology ?
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Re: The best arguments for strong atheism

#55  Postby Jireh » Dec 26, 2011 2:25 pm

I.C.37 wrote:

It's sad that you've dismissed my argument wholesale and posted another question as an answer. .


i am not intereted to answer negatives. that should have been clear at my introduction post.
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Re: The best arguments for strong atheism

#56  Postby Jireh » Dec 26, 2011 2:26 pm

smudge wrote:There is no evidence for the existence of any god. There are no valid reasons to believe a god exists, only assertions that others would 'like it to be so'. This being the case 'god belief' is on a par with any other idea anyone can come up with based on imagination, fantasy or desire. I can come up with far more appealing fantasies (should I find time to waste on such things) thanks very much.
Add to this that existence of god would mean the observable universe would show the hand of such a being in its construction; it doesn't. There is no role for such a being. If a being of relatively god-like power did exist (which I do not entirely rule out) it would not be a god in the usual religious sense as the moral requirements make it internally contradictory.
So; in the usual sense of the definition there is/are no god or gods.


And what evidence do you have on hand, the universe is self existent, and does not need a cause, or a creator ?
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Re: The best arguments for strong atheism

#57  Postby chairman bill » Dec 26, 2011 2:26 pm

Jireh, you seem to be dodging some questions here, and you've posed a question in the opening post, then later claimed your question asked something quite different. Two things, one, clarify your question, and two, what positive reasons do you have for denying the existence of pixies? Also, if it's not asking too much, maybe you could tell us something about the positive reasons for rejecting the existence of Odin et al.
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Re: The best arguments for strong atheism

#58  Postby Jireh » Dec 26, 2011 2:27 pm

UnderConstruction wrote:
Jireh wrote:
do you believe dark matter exists ? science does, despite the fact it has never been observed.


Ah yes, the "you believe in one irrational thing, so why not believe in my irrational thing?" argument. How compelling. :roll:
:


I don't think science does believe, dark matter is a irrational thing. Its actually deduce based on solid science.
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Re: The best arguments for strong atheism

#59  Postby John P. M. » Dec 26, 2011 2:54 pm

Jireh wrote:
UnderConstruction wrote:
Jireh wrote:
do you believe dark matter exists ? science does, despite the fact it has never been observed.


Ah yes, the "you believe in one irrational thing, so why not believe in my irrational thing?" argument. How compelling. :roll:
:


I don't think science does believe, dark matter is a irrational thing. Its actually deduce based on solid science.


Did you just give yourself away as a Poe there, or do you obliterate your own questions without even noticing?
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Re: The best arguments for strong atheism

#60  Postby orpheus » Dec 26, 2011 3:01 pm

:popcorn: (Uncle Orph'sTM popcorn - "Positively the best" )
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