The best arguments for strong atheism

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Re: The best arguments for strong atheism

#61  Postby jaygray » Dec 26, 2011 3:08 pm

This is a typical Jireh thread. Firstly he sets an OP, and consequently thinks that he can set the rules for any interaction (although where he thinks he gets this authority from is a mystery), and challenges (or more often ignores) any answer that does not conform to his pre-formulated conclusion. His rules are also bent for his further questions, but never for any replies.

Jireh is not after a discussion, but confirmation. Very typical, very silly, and very sad.
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Re: The best arguments for strong atheism

#62  Postby chairman bill » Dec 26, 2011 3:11 pm

And very deceitful. What is it with people lying for their god? I suspect a hidden Satanism.
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Re: The best arguments for strong atheism

#63  Postby def » Dec 26, 2011 3:20 pm

Jireh wrote:
chairman bill wrote:
Nope. You're asking for positive reasons for not believing in something.


Nope. I am asking for a explanation, how our universe can come into existence, or exist forever by its own.

That's most certainly not what you were asking. You were asking for a justification of atheism. You did not ask about how the universe came into being.

Personally, I accept that the universe exists. And because of this, matter falls into rhythms, allowing solar systems to come into existence. On those 'nice' planets (not too cold, not too hot, not too etc etc), life can form. Success in life begets more success, and gradually, human life came into existence. We were primitive, and those slow first hundreds of thousands of years, we gradually got language. Then, we started to come up with explanations for the universe, religion, society, and so on.

All of this happened over an incredibly large period of time, which is hard for humans to process, but it all makes perfect when you really consider it.

It all works, without religion. Humans are a natural product of the universe, much like planets are a product of solar systems, or bacteria is a product of a multi-cellular organism.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You want a positive argument for atheism, that's it. The world exists. It has equilibrium. That seems like natural law. Nothing else is required.

Atheism is based on a negative of the general human point of view, that of deities. But your question is disingenuous. And, since you're a theist of some sorts, and probably a moral person (or at least someone who considers themselves moral), you should consider what ethics you're showing when you 'ask' that. Atheism can be somewhat defined as not subscribing to religions. A belief that they are false. If someone were to ask of you to "positively" explain why Buddhism, Christianity, Islam, or whichever of the 99% of religions you don't subscribe to were false, could you? Can you explain that in a "positive" manner?

I've explained atheism in a positive light. You can disagree with my points, but I've done my best to do what you asked. In return, I ask you to explain why your request isn't disingenuous. My guess is that you think atheism is a negative philosophy or something of the sort, and you framed the question in such a way to try to illustrate that. What I find disingenuous about that is that you insinuate your point rather than state it, which is the honest thing to do.
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Re: The best arguments for strong atheism

#64  Postby jaygray » Dec 26, 2011 3:25 pm

...and I guess you've all noticed that there is no clarification from Jireh at all about what his idea of what strong atheism is. That particular maneouvre allows his to place the goalposts where he likes.
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Re: The best arguments for strong atheism

#65  Postby smudge » Dec 26, 2011 3:27 pm

jaygray wrote:

Jireh is not after a discussion, but confirmation. Very typical, very silly, and very sad.



chairman bill wrote:And very deceitful. What is it with people lying for their god? I suspect a hidden Satanism.



Yeh...wilfully one eyed and a waste of time attempting to engage honestly.....
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Re: The best arguments for strong atheism

#66  Postby Clive Durdle » Dec 26, 2011 3:35 pm

I am a gnostic atheist 7.5 on the Dawkins scale. I know there are no gods - except the ipu, fsm and dark goddess of chocolate.

We invented gods, as we invent loads of stuff - Made on Earth.
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Re: The best arguments for strong atheism

#67  Postby Clive Durdle » Dec 26, 2011 3:36 pm

Gods are also very useful for anyone who wants to control others and or have lots of sex.
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Re: The best arguments for strong atheism

#68  Postby UnderConstruction » Dec 26, 2011 3:47 pm

Jireh wrote:
UnderConstruction wrote:

In terms of positive claims though, it can be positive claims that lead us to reject the claims of religion. Such as the one often heard that the Earth is approximately 6-10K years old.


that is just one interpretation given. There are old earth creationists. So that is not a good point to deduce strong atheism.


Not so. Unless you contend that one must pick a single primary reason for that position, as opposed to many smaller factors combining to drive one away from theism fully. How many times do the claims of theists have to be wrong before one becomes disillusioned with the whole thing, for example? If I had the chance to study more of this stuff for myself, rather than relying on the often simplified explanations of others, I'd probably be a "strong atheist" myself.

Jireh wrote:
UnderConstruction wrote:
Jireh wrote:

And what explanations are these, exactly ?


I'm sorry, I thought you wanted to avoid discussion of one theology or another. :ask:


natrualism has what exactly to do with theology ?


Specific examples of naturalism refuting specific claims of theology. What else? In getting into specifics like this, you are doing exactly what you said you did not wish to do. But then that was never realistic from the outset. The specific claims of religions are very much relevant to the rejection of those religions.

Jireh wrote:
UnderConstruction wrote:
Jireh wrote:
do you believe dark matter exists ? science does, despite the fact it has never been observed.


Ah yes, the "you believe in one irrational thing, so why not believe in my irrational thing?" argument. How compelling. :roll:
:


I don't think science does believe, dark matter is a irrational thing. Its actually deduce based on solid science.


I interpreted your point to mean that. I was not making that claim myself. But if you are acknowledging that dark matter is based on solid science, I don't see where you are going with it at all. Given that the claims of religion are anything but based on solid science.
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Re: The best arguments for strong atheism

#69  Postby I.C.37 » Dec 26, 2011 3:48 pm

Jireh wrote:
I.C.37 wrote:

It's sad that you've dismissed my argument wholesale and posted another question as an answer. .


i am not intereted to answer negatives. that should have been clear at my introduction post.


There was nothing negative in my post, only a question for you. Here it is again:

I.C.37 wrote:Let's say, for the sake of the argument, that I go in my laboratory and create a universe (see wikipedia: the simulation hypothesis.) That universe would be as real to its inhabitants as ours is to us. I can control, modify and intervene in this universe as I please, performing miracles and whatnot.


Do I become a god? Would you, Jireh, consider me a god? Yes? No?

Would the people inside the universe I made be correct in labeling me as a god and worship me, I.C.37?

Yes? No?
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Re: The best arguments for strong atheism

#70  Postby Precambrian Rabbi » Dec 26, 2011 4:00 pm

Can someone PLEASE satisfy me that there is no elephant living in my fridge!

Using positive arguments only, of course.
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Re: The best arguments for strong atheism

#71  Postby blindfaith » Dec 26, 2011 4:11 pm

jireh said
Its not special pleasing. Ones that the hypotheses of a eternal universe was predominant until the ninteenths century.
Modern scientific research leads us to believe, the universe is not eternal, but had a beginning with the Big Bang.


how do you know the universe started with the big bang, and hasnt been big banging for eternity?
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Re: The best arguments for strong atheism

#72  Postby Jireh » Dec 26, 2011 4:26 pm

def wrote:
Jireh wrote:
chairman bill wrote:
Nope. You're asking for positive reasons for not believing in something.


Nope. I am asking for a explanation, how our universe can come into existence, or exist forever by its own.

That's most certainly not what you were asking. You were asking for a justification of atheism. You did not ask about how the universe came into being.

Personally, I accept that the universe exists. And because of this, matter falls into rhythms, allowing solar systems to come into existence. On those 'nice' planets (not too cold, not too hot, not too etc etc), life can form. Success in life begets more success, and gradually, human life came into existence. We were primitive, and those slow first hundreds of thousands of years, we gradually got language. Then, we started to come up with explanations for the universe, religion, society, and so on.

All of this happened over an incredibly large period of time, which is hard for humans to process, but it all makes perfect when you really consider it.

It all works, without religion.


that looks surprisingly similar to religion. Its based on faith, nothing else.

Humans are a natural product of the universe


and you base this assertion on what, exactly ?


Atheism is based on a negative of the general human point of view, that of deities. But your question is disingenuous. And, since you're a theist of some sorts, and probably a moral person (or at least someone who considers themselves moral), you should consider what ethics you're showing when you 'ask' that. Atheism can be somewhat defined as not subscribing to religions. A belief that they are false. If someone were to ask of you to "positively" explain why Buddhism, Christianity, Islam, or whichever of the 99% of religions you don't subscribe to were false, could you?


Sure i could.

Can you explain that in a "positive" manner?


i could explain in a positive manner, why i believe my faith makes sense, and subsequently, the others don't.

I've explained atheism in a positive light.


yes, but very superficially. And so far, not compelling to me. For that, you should try harder. And go deeper into the issues.
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Re: The best arguments for strong atheism

#73  Postby Jireh » Dec 26, 2011 4:27 pm

Clive Durdle wrote: I know there are no gods - .


amazing. and how exactly you came to know this ?
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Re: The best arguments for strong atheism

#74  Postby orpheus » Dec 26, 2011 4:29 pm

blindfaith wrote:
jireh said
Its not special pleasing. Ones that the hypotheses of a eternal universe was predominant until the ninteenths century.
Modern scientific research leads us to believe, the universe is not eternal, but had a beginning with the Big Bang.


how do you know the universe started with the big bang, and hasnt been big banging for eternity?


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Re: The best arguments for strong atheism

#75  Postby Jireh » Dec 26, 2011 4:29 pm

blindfaith wrote:
jireh said
Its not special pleasing. Ones that the hypotheses of a eternal universe was predominant until the ninteenths century.
Modern scientific research leads us to believe, the universe is not eternal, but had a beginning with the Big Bang.


how do you know the universe started with the big bang, and hasnt been big banging for eternity?


do you know actually what eternity means ?
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Re: The best arguments for strong atheism

#76  Postby UnderConstruction » Dec 26, 2011 4:33 pm

Jireh wrote:
blindfaith wrote:
jireh said
Its not special pleasing. Ones that the hypotheses of a eternal universe was predominant until the ninteenths century.
Modern scientific research leads us to believe, the universe is not eternal, but had a beginning with the Big Bang.


how do you know the universe started with the big bang, and hasnt been big banging for eternity?


do you know actually what eternity means ?


Do you?
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Re: The best arguments for strong atheism

#77  Postby blindfaith » Dec 26, 2011 4:37 pm

jireh your avoiding the question, i do know what eternity means, now pls answer mine, thanks
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Re: The best arguments for strong atheism

#78  Postby Scar » Dec 26, 2011 4:42 pm

blindfaith wrote:jireh your avoiding the question, i do know what eternity means, now pls answer mine, thanks


Good luck with that.
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Re: The best arguments for strong atheism

#79  Postby chairman bill » Dec 26, 2011 5:52 pm

Yes, all very interesting, but about pixies ...
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Re: The best arguments for strong atheism

#80  Postby Calilasseia » Dec 26, 2011 5:58 pm

Oh dear, look who's back. And doubtless ready to erect all the usual tiresome canards we see all the time from supernaturalists.

Well, in answer to the original question, here's some sound reasons for adopting a strong atheist position:

[1] A strong atheist rejects the very idea that "belief" purportedly constitutes a source of substantive knowledge. This is because belief, as practised by supernaturalists, consists of uncritical acceptance of unsupported blind mythological assertions, and the treatment of said assertions as if they constituted established fact. Unfortunately, many supernaturalists appear to be blissfully unaware of the elementary fact that assertions do not equal fact, which a strong atheist readily understands.

[2] As a corollary of rejecting belief itself as purportedly constituting a source of substantive knowledge, a strong atheist bases his understanding of the world upon evidentially supported postulates. Which follows as a natural corollary from rejecting belief, as expounded in [1] above.

[3] As a corollary of basing one's understanding upon evidentially supported postulates, one's ideas about the world are much more likely to be correct, than ideas based upon treating mythological fabrications as if they constituted fact. A likelihood that is borne out by every piece of scientific research ever conducted (see below).

[4] Over a million scientific papers establish conclusively that testable natural processes are sufficient to account for vast classes of real world observational phenomena, and as a direct corollary thereof, supernatural entities are superfluous to requirements and irrelevant.

[5] As a corollary of [4] above, accepting the validity of the evidentially supported postulates contained in those million or more scientific papers, and basing one's understanding of the world about them, results in much more informed policy making. This is in contrast to the manifest disasters that result from basing policy upon unsupported mythological assertions. Disasters such as the documented instances of children who have died, as a result of adults around them treating mythological fantasies as purportedly being "superior" to evidence-based science and medicine.

[6] Supernaturalist assertions have been subjected, albeit unwillingly, to empirical test, and have failed those tests. 1348 and the Black Death being a classic example. On the other hand, evidentially supported postulates arising from science have demonstrably worked time and time again, which as a corollary establishes that testable natural processes demonstrably work, unlike mythology.

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