The Purpose of religion in society

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The Purpose of religion in society

#1  Postby Handy andy » Feb 28, 2017 7:19 pm

Many people of all religions do not believe the religious stories to be fact, but consider religion to be a good thing in society and give some form of social cohesion, multi cultural diversity and choice etc, whether this be judaism, buddhism, islam, hinduism, rosicrutianism, christianity etc. Most people of all countries and religions do not believe extremism in religion is a good thing, except of course the extremists.

An historical example of extremism in Catholicism would be the Spanish inquisition, in Islam today it would be the atrocities of ISIS. 60% of Islam is based on Christianity.

Christianity in the current form was created in 325AD by Emperor Constantine at the council of Nicea. The religion was compiled from the Hebrew religion forming the old testament, and the Ancient Egyptian religions dated circa 3500BC. There is no historical record of the existence of Jesus. The story is a direct copy from the older Egyptian religions, after the Roman conquest of Egypt, which were based on the mythical story of Horus and Isis-Mery (Isis beloved). The correlations between what is written in the new testament are too many to be anything other than a copy. Would it not be better for people of all religions to know the facts. Pope Pious X stated "the Jesus Myth has served us well".

Would this not allow a return to normality in religion, and return it to family focus rather focus on a mistaken belief system. For an extremist religion gives them a reason to be fanatical and kill. For moderates religion gives none of those things, it just gives some form of social cohesion and festivals.

From the Christian tradition or Egyptian they are virtually the same, St John "If you know the truth the truth will set you free" From Luke Dont you know that god is in and around you and everything you see. For most people that is a pretty good definition of god, for a scientist it would be the god particle or ether, it is effectively the same thing. Moderation and teaching the truth has to be the way forward.

Does anyone agree, or do moderate views in this world not stand a chance.

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Re: The Purpose of religion in society

#2  Postby Fenrir » Mar 01, 2017 2:24 am

The purpose of paragraphs is to break rambling rants into readable pieces.

Does anyone agree?
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Re: The Purpose of religion in society

#3  Postby Fallible » Mar 01, 2017 8:29 am

I mean...what are we supposed to do with that? There are so many problems with it even a line by line response wouldn't catch all of it. It seems to be entirely woven from overlapping and interlocking bits of crap.

If you get rid of everything from religion that isn't a fact, you get rid of religion. Religion centres on belief in things you can't know to be true. That's its entire thing. This social cohesion bollocks is just that. Certainly somewhere like the UK, church attendance is dwindling to next to nothing, so practically no one comes together due to religion. As for 'normality in religion', who knows what the hell that means. 'Family focus'? In what way do we need religion for that? Two posts, and two separate iterations of the claim that God is all around us. I feel like I'm in Four Weddings and a Funeral. Tack on an unsubstantiated argumentum ad populum and a false dichotomy, and the catalogue of bilge is complete. There, that's about as much time as I'm willing to give this post.
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Re: The Purpose of religion in society

#4  Postby Handy andy » Mar 01, 2017 9:22 am

Religion would be stronger if it accepted the truth. Children believe in Father Christmas and it is good, but for adults to carry on believing in Father Christmas is not. Imagine having extremists killing people because they someone did not believe in father Christmas.

Rather than looking at the two largest religions on the planet, if we consider Hinduism, with all the different separate deities. No Hindu as far as I am aware think for one second the deities existed, but understand they represent different concepts, of their belief in god.

Is not openness and moderation in religion a better way forward than blind belief in something that is wrong. Religion would be better if it looked to the future rather than looking to the past.
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Re: The Purpose of religion in society

#5  Postby Fallible » Mar 01, 2017 9:40 am

Handy andy wrote:Religion would be stronger if it accepted the truth.


Religion wouldn't exist if it accepted the truth! As I said, its whole thing is the uncritical belief in things one can't know to be true.

Children believe in Father Christmas and it is good,


In what way is it good?

but for adults to carry on believing in Father Christmas is not. Imagine having extremists killing people because they someone did not believe in father Christmas.


That is basically exactly what happens. The idea that Father Christmas is real and rewards good children and punishes naughty children is the entire point of religion. It's also not true. That's why your comment makes no sense. If religion accepted that there is no Father Christmas, it would have literally nothing.

Rather than looking at the two largest religions on the planet, if we consider Hinduism, with all the different separate deities. No Hindu as far as I am aware think for one second the deities existed, but understand they represent different concepts, of their belief in god.


And? So what? There's (a) god in which they believe - without evidence.

Is not openness and moderation in religion a better way forward than blind belief in something that is wrong. Religion would be better if it looked to the future rather than looking to the past.


I really don't know what you're hoping to achieve here. We're mainly atheists and sceptics on this site. We already think that openness and moderation is a better way forward than blind belief. I don't think you're understanding that if you remove untruth, blind faith and looking to the past from religion, you have nothing left.
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Re: The Purpose of religion in society

#6  Postby Handy andy » Mar 01, 2017 10:26 am

I have a pretty open mind. I posted on this thread to get some religious open thinkers to discuss the subject. I was not expecting to get shot down because of grammatical errors or by atheists. As you will see I do not believe in the stories of religion, but do recognize, in some societies and cultures, when in moderation religions can give increased cultural diversity.

I am an engineer so you can understand I look at things in black and white, true or false, I do not like the concept of paradoxes of multiple universes. I am an free thinker, not hindered by any doctrine, I am aware off.

The problem we seem to have to day in society, is the mind set where there is must be one correct way of thinking, and only one answer to every question. We see that in science. Life is not like that and neither are humans. It is not possible to have a mathematical equation to predict every known outcome in the universe, or a system to control all of thought of all of humanity. One person in charge of the world telling everyone what to think is not going to work. One scientist with a pet theory is not going to control all of science. The human race, science, cultures, religion, and politics need to be flexible and tolerant, to move forward. I do not wish to goose step around wearing the same clothes as every other person on the planet believing exactly the same thing, there would be no point in discussion, I like diversity and discussion, with all people, except extremists. Extremists are not only religios they are political scientific sporting etc.

Father Christmas is good for children, and the economy, it is a win win situation for business and children. The parents get to see there kids excited at a cost. Telling kids the celebration was about the winter solstice and a time when tribal groups would come together in the past to celebrate the lengthening days would also work. Parties are good for moral and social cohesion don't you think.

Sorry an atheist response was not my target audience.
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Re: The Purpose of religion in society

#7  Postby Sendraks » Mar 01, 2017 10:31 am

Purpose of religion is control.

If you want to control people, historically, religion and the fear based approach it uses, seems to be quite effective especially when combined with a lack of education and general deprivation.
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Re: The Purpose of religion in society

#8  Postby Handy andy » Mar 01, 2017 11:08 am

I agree completely with your statement, and since every seems to be of the atheist persuasion on this forum I will digress. Many so called political world leaders claim to be religious and seem to try and encourage religion with tax breaks. Does anyone believe a politician, does anyone really believe that an educated person believes in all the stories.

People in power think it is good for peasants to do as they are told, peasants don't have the ability to think for themselves. Leaders have for millennia, claimed to speak on behalf of god. Constantine Roman empire 325AD spoke for god as does the pope today for instance. Leaders think peasants will believe what they do is right if god says its ok to go to war. Blair and Bush for instance apparently prayed in the whitehouse before agreeing to invade Iraq. It is just as likely they talked shit, and said lets destabilise the Islamic world, and convert them all to Catholicism. The Pope of course has a hot line to god in his head, and for the Jesuit Christian fanatic crowd speaks for god on earth. I do not believe world leaders believe in a god, but I do think they think it is good for peasants to do so. Peasants that believe in a god are excellent gun fodder in wars. Why be concerned about death if you are going to sit on a fluffy white cloud and play a harp etc. Perhaps if you are Islamic you could have 40 virgins, male or female I guess would be a personal preference.

My own opinion on this is that every atom of your body will eventually be recycled and you will be reborn, or go back into the food chain and be continually recycled. Beyond that you are into metaphysics.

Does everyone believe world leaders believe in religion as a truth. Or does any one suspect they are full of crap, but trying to lead the better part of humanity down the garden path.

sorry about the grammar
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Re: The Purpose of religion in society

#9  Postby Sendraks » Mar 01, 2017 11:18 am

Handy andy wrote:
My own opinion on this is that every atom of your body will eventually be recycled and you will be reborn, or go back into the food chain and be continually recycled.


Recycled =/= reborn.
There's no evidence to suggest that human beings are reborn.

Handy andy wrote:Does everyone believe world leaders believe in religion as a truth. Or does any one suspect they are full of crap, but trying to lead the better part of humanity down the garden path.


Some believe it sincerely, some don't and its a ploy just to win votes from a particular demographic.
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Re: The Purpose of religion in society

#10  Postby Fallible » Mar 01, 2017 11:34 am

Handy andy wrote:I have a pretty open mind. I posted on this thread to get some religious open thinkers to discuss the subject.


Did you notice what this site is called? If you wanted religious open thinkers, it might have been a better idea to find a forum with a big religious contingent.

I was not expecting to get shot down because of grammatical errors or by atheists.


Who has shot you down for grammatical errors? Ah - do you mean the capital a? Mentioning that you don't need it is not shooting you down.

As you will see I do not believe in the stories of religion, but do recognize, in some societies and cultures, when in moderation religions can give increased cultural diversity.


Perhaps point to some of them.

I am an engineer so you can understand I look at things in black and white, true or false, I do not like the concept of paradoxes of multiple universes. I am an free thinker, not hindered by any doctrine, I am aware off.


There have been some engineers here over the years with some extremely bizarre notions - your chosen occupation has nothing to say about the way you think in any area other than engineering.

The problem we seem to have to day in society, is the mind set where there is must be one correct way of thinking, and only one answer to every question. We see that in science. Life is not like that and neither are humans. It is not possible to have a mathematical equation to predict every known outcome in the universe, or a system to control all of thought of all of humanity. One person in charge of the world telling everyone what to think is not going to work. One scientist with a pet theory is not going to control all of science. The human race, science, cultures, religion, and politics need to be flexible and tolerant, to move forward. I do not wish to goose step around wearing the same clothes as every other person on the planet believing exactly the same thing, there would be no point in discussion, I like diversity and discussion, with all people, except extremists. Extremists are not only religios they are political scientific sporting etc.


Again, we get that here. You're not going to find much if any opposition to the idea that extremism is bad. And we don't see that in science. Any theory stands or falls dependent on evidence, and therefore science is constantly updating its findings. That there are unscrupulous individuals within science doesn't reflect negatively on science itself.

Father Christmas is good for children, and the economy, it is a win win situation for business and children.


In what way is Father Christmas good for children? In what way do we need belief in Father Christmas in order for Christmas to be successful for retailers?

The parents get to see there kids excited at a cost.


Are you being serious? It's hard to tell. I'd grown out of Father Christmas belief by age 7. This in no way curtailed my excitement about Christmas, which I still experience today. There is no belief in some entity required.

Telling kids the celebration was about the winter solstice and a time when tribal groups would come together in the past to celebrate the lengthening days would also work. Parties are good for moral and social cohesion don't you think.


And you can have parties without religion. What am I supposed to be getting from this?

Sorry an atheist response was not my target audience.


Well then it's tough shit, isn't it. There are one or two theists here, but it's mainly atheists. Probably not the best place if they're your intended audience.
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Re: The Purpose of religion in society

#11  Postby Fallible » Mar 01, 2017 11:36 am

Handy andy wrote:I agree completely with your statement, and since every seems to be of the atheist persuasion on this forum I will digress. Many so called political world leaders claim to be religious and seem to try and encourage religion with tax breaks. Does anyone believe a politician, does anyone really believe that an educated person believes in all the stories.

People in power think it is good for peasants to do as they are told, peasants don't have the ability to think for themselves. Leaders have for millennia, claimed to speak on behalf of god. Constantine Roman empire 325AD spoke for god as does the pope today for instance. Leaders think peasants will believe what they do is right if god says its ok to go to war. Blair and Bush for instance apparently prayed in the whitehouse before agreeing to invade Iraq. It is just as likely they talked shit, and said lets destabilise the Islamic world, and convert them all to Catholicism. The Pope of course has a hot line to god in his head, and for the Jesuit Christian fanatic crowd speaks for god on earth. I do not believe world leaders believe in a god, but I do think they think it is good for peasants to do so. Peasants that believe in a god are excellent gun fodder in wars. Why be concerned about death if you are going to sit on a fluffy white cloud and play a harp etc. Perhaps if you are Islamic you could have 40 virgins, male or female I guess would be a personal preference.

My own opinion on this is that every atom of your body will eventually be recycled and you will be reborn, or go back into the food chain and be continually recycled. Beyond that you are into metaphysics.

Does everyone believe world leaders believe in religion as a truth. Or does any one suspect they are full of crap, but trying to lead the better part of humanity down the garden path.

sorry about the grammar


Of course they're mostly full of crap and just using religion as a tool. Is this meant to be news?
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Re: The Purpose of religion in society

#12  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Mar 01, 2017 11:46 am

There's so much assertionism and appeals to personal ignorance in the OP's posts.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: The Purpose of religion in society

#13  Postby Scot Dutchy » Mar 01, 2017 12:18 pm

Anything new? Doubt it.
Myths in islam Women and islam Musilm opinion polls


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Re: The Purpose of religion in society

#14  Postby tuco » Mar 01, 2017 4:36 pm

Purpose of religion .. depends whom we ask. I would ask those who believe and then I'd have couple of billions of anecdotes.
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Re: The Purpose of religion in society

#15  Postby quas » Mar 01, 2017 4:36 pm

If you wanted to create the perfect autocracy, religion would definitely be useful. Just believe and do as instructed, any criticism means blasphemy and that means death penalty.
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem
those who think alike than those who think differently. -Nietzsche
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Re: The Purpose of religion in society

#16  Postby Blackadder » Mar 01, 2017 6:12 pm

The Purpose of religion in society?

The main one would appear to be to avoid having to do the hard work of physics, chemistry, biology, astronomy, mathematics and logic in order to make sense of the natural world and instead to uncritically accept evidence-free bullshit as a substitute.
That credulity should be gross in proportion to the ignorance of the mind that it enslaves, is in strict consistency with the principle of human nature. - Percy Bysshe Shelley
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Re: The Purpose of religion in society

#17  Postby Scot Dutchy » Mar 01, 2017 6:16 pm

It allows certain members of society access to minds and bodies that they should not access.
Myths in islam Women and islam Musilm opinion polls


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Re: The Purpose of religion in society

#18  Postby Handy andy » Mar 01, 2017 6:45 pm

OK we have a discussion, The main point as mentioned by some on the thread is that religion is an instrument for control, used by politicians and people running society. I do not believe religion to be a good thing, but I do believe that politicians etc use it as a tool to control people.

I think all responses are generally from Atheists. I was trying to be delicate in my wording on the first post of this thread, as I have upset religious types in the past.

Does anyone think the current Pope believes Jesus existed, Pope Pious X stated the Jesus MYTH has served us well?

Does anyone think your average Politician believes religion is anything but a tool to control the masses, and possibly win votes?

Many Politicians globally are freemasons is their a link?

The Templars had the power to depose kings in the 13th century, perhaps they never went away and are still running the worlds banking system. See the American dollar Bill.?

Does anyone think that there is a way to persuade politicians that religion is bad, or that there is a middle way, to teach the truth, about the myths and where religion originates.?

Would a one world government be a bad thing, this is one of freemasons aims according to their writings.?

Would anyone like to speculate coherently rather than rant.

I don't live in an English speaking country so my English Grammar is getting a bit rusty. The Dog Black sat on the Mat Red type thing. You will just have to accept it, my English aint what it used to be.

I still think father Christmas is a good idea for kids, and winter solstice celebrations for adults are a good thing, but I think we have covered this concept.
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Re: The Purpose of religion in society

#19  Postby VazScep » Mar 01, 2017 7:42 pm

Handy andy wrote:Sorry an atheist response was not my target audience.
Then I suggest you got the wrong forum. Try a religious forum.

I've been on a bit of a mysticism bent for a while now, though. Rosicrucianism and templars and masons get my attention, but I can't take it very seriously.

I was friends with a Reverend who wouldn't commit to a literal resurrection of Jesus, and even the last Archbishop of Canterbury felt it necessary to state that he did. The idea of religious claims falling back from fairy stories into mystery and amorphousness tickles something in me.

So yeah, I liked your OP, but this is still the wrong forum.
Here we go again. First, we discover recursion.
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Re: The Purpose of religion in society

#20  Postby John Platko » Mar 01, 2017 8:32 pm

... There is no historical record of the existence of Jesus. The story is a direct copy from the older Egyptian religions, after the Roman conquest of Egypt, which were based on the mythical story of Horus and Isis-Mery (Isis beloved). ...


:jawdrop: I don't recall being taught:
from

Horus was born to the goddess Isis after she retrieved all the dismembered body parts of her murdered husband Osiris, except his penis, which was thrown into the Nile and eaten by a catfish,[7][8] or sometimes by a crab, and according to Plutarch's account used her magic powers to resurrect Osiris and fashion a golden phallus[9] to conceive her son (older Egyptian accounts have the penis of Osiris surviving).
Once Isis knew she was pregnant with Horus, she fled to the Nile Delta marshlands to hide from her brother Set, who jealously killed Osiris and who she knew would want to kill their son.[10] There Isis bore a divine son, Horus.


in Catechism. :nono: :picard:
I like to imagine ...
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