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Re: What's the battiest thing you ever heard a believer say?

#21  Postby Hermit » Apr 21, 2019 11:28 am

Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:


Do you think we would be further ahead if it had been atheists who started the scientific tradition?

What scientific tradition?

You've used lots of words, but those words clearly mean something different to you than to me.

Perhaps you'd best unpack... in a relevant thread on a topic of your choosing, rather than on this thread which has a very clear and specific remit. There's an entire forum here with ample subfora for you to select which is most appropriate.

I'll be happy to answer your questions there once you explain what it is you want to ask.

Science, the progression of it, would it have advanced further if atheists had been the majority of scientists, is what I'm asking.

Pridefel Knowitelz";p="2691854"][quote="Spearthrower";p="2691850"][quote="Pridefel Knowitelz";p="2691845"][quote="Spearthrower";p=", are you interested in discussion at all, or merely intent on asking a question, then immediately moving on to asking another?

I replied to your previous one in this post. Looks like that was a waste of time. You're not really interested in debating anything, are you?
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Re: What's the battiest thing you ever heard a believer say?

#22  Postby Pridefel Knowitelz » Apr 21, 2019 11:34 am

Hermit wrote:
Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:

Do you think we would be further ahead if it had been atheists who started the scientific tradition?

What scientific tradition?

You've used lots of words, but those words clearly mean something different to you than to me.

Perhaps you'd best unpack... in a relevant thread on a topic of your choosing, rather than on this thread which has a very clear and specific remit. There's an entire forum here with ample subfora for you to select which is most appropriate.

I'll be happy to answer your questions there once you explain what it is you want to ask.

Science, the progression of it, would it have advanced further if atheists had been the majority of scientists, is what I'm asking.

Pridefel Knowitelz";p="2691854"]
Spearthrower wrote:
Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:[quote="Spearthrower";p=", are you interested in discussion at all, or merely intent on asking a question, then immediately moving on to asking another?

I replied to your previous one in this post. Looks like that was a waste of time. You're not really interested in debating anything, are you?


Sorry if you feel that I was deliberately ignoring you, but you posted a couple of graphs showing that roughly half of scientists are theists. Ok fine. I'm not sure what response you expected. You want me to just keep asking you more and more questions? I don't really have anything to add other than fair enough, half of scientists are theists. Besides, apparently I'm being off topic so if there's anything else you want to add I'm sure we can discuss it over at Spearthrower's bizarre new thread (link in his post above).
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Re: What's the battiest thing you ever heard a believer say?

#23  Postby Hermit » Apr 21, 2019 11:58 am

Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:I'm not sure what response you expected. You want me to just keep asking you more and more questions?

No. No more questions, thanks. I thought I made that clear enough. What I did expect you to do, is to reply to this:
Hermit wrote:In the times Keppler, Galileo, Newton, Darwin et. al. were alive all schools were run by religious establishments and no students were atheists. So, considering how the Catholic church persecuted and hounded those scientists, it's a wonder that the scientific revolution happened at all.

The contrast in beliefs between among scientists on one hand and the general public on the other is rather telling in regard to who is driving scientific progress now.
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Re: Atheism & Science

#24  Postby Pebble » Apr 21, 2019 12:07 pm

Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:Do you think we would be further ahead if it had been atheists who started the scientific tradition?



By scientific tradition I assume you mean empiricism.

The issue then is tradition - that clearly requires that it is not merely a solitary effort, but a widely accepted practice.

Empiricism was clearly proposed and practiced in antiquity - Kanada, Aristotle, Epicurius, the Stoics, most of whom leaned toward Atheism. It was a tradition among their followers for a period of time.

So presumably you mean by the 'scientific tradition' that which followed the enlightenment.

There seems to be little argument that progress in the realms of science was frustrated after the fall of Greece and the christian conversion of the Roman empire.

So perhaps, one way of looking at this is to question whether religious domination of societies has delayed progress in empiricism.
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Re: Atheism & Science

#25  Postby Spearthrower » Apr 21, 2019 12:20 pm

Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:I'm flattered that you felt the need to start a thread dedicated to my questions about atheism,...


I wish I could sincerely say you're welcome, but rather, I was helping you not to fall foul of the FUA on your first day here by continually taking a thread off topic.


Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:... even though I've just joined the forum. I don't really have any new questions right now, but erm...thanks.


Oh that's odd. You seemed to have a lot of questions unrelated to the other topic, but now you've got this thread you've suddenly dried up?

Well, if you change your mind, I will still be here.
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Re: Atheism & Science

#26  Postby Spearthrower » Apr 21, 2019 12:22 pm

Oh look!

How strange!

You are STILL posting off-topic asides in the other thread even though you now have your own thread to ask questions on a topic of your choosing!

What's the battiest thing you ever heard a believer say?

Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:
Well that was bizarre. You've started a whole new thread all about how I asked you to find a thread where you could address a question that I asked you on this thread. Then you took the time to quote as well as link to every post in our conversation.

I don't get it. Look if you don't want to answer my question I think I'll be just fine, and if you do, then I'll be happy to read your answer wherever you choose to post it. But that thread man, it just seems weird and pointless.

Unless, of course, you actually think I'm that important that I deserve my own thread in which to ask people questions. Me, a newbie who's not even been here for 24 hours? I feel kinda bad saying this but I wouldn't start a thread dedicated to your questions, especially if you were an insignificant newbie like me.


But now you've got this thread, after having asked me to help you do it, you're not only calling it 'strange' but you seem all coy.

Do you want to discuss this topic, or not?
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Re: What's the battiest thing you ever heard a believer say?

#27  Postby Spearthrower » Apr 21, 2019 12:25 pm

Sorry if you feel that I was deliberately ignoring you, but you posted a couple of graphs showing that roughly half of scientists are theists.


I always love this idea.... like the term 'theists' represent some kind of categorical homogeneity.

Christian theists spent several hundred years doing their best to murder each other. But when revising history, they just suddenly become part of the same gang.
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Re: Atheism & Science

#28  Postby Spearthrower » Apr 21, 2019 12:36 pm

Well that was bizarre. You've started a whole new thread all about how I asked you to find a thread where you could address a question that I asked you on this thread.


No, I helped you from falling foul on your first day of the FUA you signed up for. Posting off topic on that thread is against the rules you agreed to.

You even said that I could aid you by finding an appropriate place for the topic you wished to discuss. Here it is!

Then you took the time to quote as well as link to every post in our conversation.


Yes, indeed I did. That's another little courtesy on my part so that neither of us had to repeat what we'd already said, and neither of us would inadvertently ignore prior replies upon moving here. It's just context. Not sure how that becomes so unusual for you.

Don't worry though - it only took a couple of minutes: not much skin off my nose.

I don't get it.


You don't get what? What is there to get? Nothing so far seems to be very complicated.

Look if you don't want to answer my question I think I'll be just fine, and if you do, then I'll be happy to read your answer wherever you choose to post it.


Talking of odd responses, you're complaining that I opened a thread to address your question in detail by suggesting that I don't want to answer your question! :D

Clearly, I am more than willing to answer your question, which is why I opened this thread on your behalf. Also, I included the conversation leading up to this so that neither of us would neglect to remember how I asked you to unpack your question given the ambiguity of the phrasing you used. I even gave examples of how your ambiguous question could be misconstrued: so here is your opportunity and on-topic thread to expand on your question so it becomes legible enough to answer.

But that thread man, it just seems weird and pointless.


It's a thread about your question. I do agree that your question appears weird and pointless, but I am more than willing to give you the benefit of the doubt - it being your first day here and all.

Unless, of course, you actually think I'm that important that I deserve my own thread in which to ask people questions. Me, a newbie who's not even been here for 24 hours? I feel kinda bad saying this but I wouldn't start a thread dedicated to your questions, especially if you were an insignificant newbie like me.


Of course you're that important. You're a new member here who has lots of questions. Why shouldn't you be given the attention you apparently want? I am not sure what your status as a "newbie" has with respect to whether you can possess your own thread or not. In fact, it's generally considered good form for a "newbie" to make an introductory post as their first post so that fellow members may welcome them.

Perhaps you're used to a different form of internet etiquette. I would say that you'll find the discourse in this place robust and comprehensive. I hope you enjoy that.
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Re: What's the battiest thing you ever heard a believer say?

#29  Postby Pridefel Knowitelz » Apr 21, 2019 1:09 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
Sorry if you feel that I was deliberately ignoring you, but you posted a couple of graphs showing that roughly half of scientists are theists.


I always love this idea.... like the term 'theists' represent some kind of categorical homogeneity.

Christian theists spent several hundred years doing their best to murder each other. But when revising history, they just suddenly become part of the same gang.


That's true, a lot of christians have been involved in wars.
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Re: Atheism & Science

#30  Postby Pridefel Knowitelz » Apr 21, 2019 1:14 pm

Spearthrower I would suggest you read Pebble's post. He/she asks if religious domination of societies has delayed progress in empiricism, which is very relevant to my question. What do you think?
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Re: Atheism & Science

#31  Postby Spearthrower » Apr 21, 2019 2:28 pm

Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:Spearthrower I would suggest you read Pebble's post. He/she asks if religious domination of societies has delayed progress in empiricism, which is very relevant to my question. What do you think?



I read Pebble's post.

It's one possible meaning of your question, but as I've already shown - there are many possible responses to your question.

Surely rather than play at guessing your meaning... you could just tell me what you mean.

For example, I already pointed to Thales - a guy who is often cited as the Father of Science.

Singer, C. (2008). A short history of science to the 19th century.

http://www.philosophers.co.uk/thales-of-miletus.html

In addition to being viewed as the beginner of Western philosophy, Thales of Miletus is also the first to define general principles and develop hypotheses. He is therefore sometimes also referred to as the “father of science” although this epithet is usually used in reference to Democritus, another prominent ancient Greek philosopher who formulated the atomic theory that states that all matter is composed of particles called atoms.


https://www.greekboston.com/culture/anc ... s-miletus/

Although Thales of Miletus was actually an Ancient Greek philosopher, he is also considered to be the Father of Science.



As you can see, there is also reference to Democritus.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democritus

Many consider Democritus to be the "father of modern science"


Pamela Gossin, Encyclopedia of Literature and Science, 2002.


Given I still don't know what you mean by your question regarding scientific tradition and theism/atheism, these figures could be pertinent, or not at all.

What is interesting is that while Thales appears to have been preoccupied with a universal source or substance of mind but whose notions seem to bounce between deism and theism, Democritus was a staunch materialist who made no reference to gods and, in fact, that earned him some enemies among theists of the time.

So were the tradition you spoke of to include the pre-Socratic philosophers, which undoubtedly form part of a Western scientific tradition, then it is still difficult to be clear whether atheists were more involved in science than was common in the Christian period of Europe.

Of course, we do need to bear in mind that denial of the Christian god throughout the Medieval period would have resulted in mortal repercussions for anyone holding forth such a position, and their works would have been expunged from the record. Were a budding scientist in the Medieval period to have disbelieved in God, I expect we simply wouldn't know because they'd have been bloody stupid to make it public.

Thus my position would then be that it is difficult to say what role atheists may or may not have had in the progression of our scientific tradition. I expect that they have had a role, and I expect that given the post-Enlightenment disposition to do away with gods in favour of naturalistic positions, and given how rapidly scientific knowledge has progressed over that period, then I think scientists (whether theist or not) accrue knowledge more swiftly when not labouring under divine metaphysical assumptions.
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Re: Atheism & Science

#32  Postby The_Metatron » Apr 21, 2019 2:31 pm

Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:I'm flattered that you felt the need to start a thread dedicated to my questions about atheism, even though I've just joined the forum. I don't really have any new questions right now, but erm...thanks.

Don’t feel too flattered. You realize you’re going to take an ass kicking here, don’t you? You are about to tilt at windmills, for all the good it will do you.
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Re: What's the battiest thing you ever heard a believer say?

#33  Postby Spearthrower » Apr 21, 2019 2:46 pm

Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:That's true, a lot of christians have been involved in wars.


Involved in wars amongst themselves! Over centuries!

That's the same religious group, so the notion that 'theists' amounts to some cogent category, say for example with respect to quantities of scientists by belief, is highly problematic.
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Re: Theism, atheism and science

#34  Postby Svartalf » Apr 21, 2019 8:16 pm

Christianity has always been a less important factor than national, or even regional identity, except during the extremely limited frame of tbe crusades, and even then French tried to outmanoeuver German, Italian and Byzantine...
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Re: Theism, atheism and science

#35  Postby Alan B » Apr 21, 2019 8:45 pm

Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:I'm flattered that you felt the need to start a thread dedicated to my questions about atheism,...

Atheism doesn't exist. I have no belief in the existence of a god or gods. As an atheist I do not have to 'belong' to an '-ism' to have that non-belief.
I have NO BELIEF in the existence of a God or gods. I do not have to offer evidence nor do I have to determine absence of evidence because I do not ASSERT that a God does or does not or gods do or do not exist.
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Re: Theism, atheism and science

#36  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Apr 21, 2019 9:37 pm

Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:
A scientifically incompetent atheist. That's fairly normal too. I mean, not as normal as scientifically incompetent theists, but let's not count beans.


Do you think we would be further ahead if it had been atheists who started the scientific tradition?

Who says they didn't? If we even accept the simplistic notion that the scientific traditions started in one particular place and time.
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Re: What's the battiest thing you ever heard a believer say?

#37  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Apr 21, 2019 9:41 pm

Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
Sorry if you feel that I was deliberately ignoring you, but you posted a couple of graphs showing that roughly half of scientists are theists.


I always love this idea.... like the term 'theists' represent some kind of categorical homogeneity.

Christian theists spent several hundred years doing their best to murder each other. But when revising history, they just suddenly become part of the same gang.


That's true, a lot of christians have been involved in wars have been started and waged in the name of Christianity, by Christians.


FIFY.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Atheism & Science

#38  Postby TopCat » Apr 21, 2019 10:10 pm

Spearthrower wrote:Well, if you change your mind, I will still be here.

Chomp, chomp. :naughty2:

I must at this point declare my gratitude to Hackenslash, who, with a few choice comments here a few years ago, saved me from what I suspect will be Pridecomesbeforeafall Knowitall's fate.
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Re: Theism, atheism and science

#39  Postby surreptitious57 » Apr 22, 2019 2:24 am

The belief of scientists is irrelevant as long as those beliefs dont interfere with science
What actually matters is the scientific method itself and how rigorously it is employed
Therefore whether scientists are atheist or theist is not important with regard to this
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Re: Theism, atheism and science

#40  Postby Fenrir » Apr 22, 2019 2:58 am

surreptitious57 wrote:The belief of scientists is irrelevant as long as those beliefs dont interfere with science
What actually matters is the scientific method itself and how rigorously it is employed
Therefore whether scientists are atheist or theist is not important with regard to this


Phew, Giordano Bruno will be right pleased to hear this.
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