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Re: What's the battiest thing you ever heard a believer say?

#1  Postby Pridefel Knowitelz » Apr 20, 2019 6:36 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:I've never heard a believer say anything that strikes me as crazy.

Shaking one's keys at a polar bear will scare it away, because God gave man dominion over animals and installed fear of humans in them.

That's certifiably crazy as believing it while in the vicinity of a hungry polar bear will lead to death.


It certainly is. Hey check it out, an atheist once said to me in all seriousness that the reason why she doesn't believe in God is because if there was an creator of the universe - which we agreed would be uncreated if it did exist - then who created that creator?

Another atheist told me that the big bang is the origin of the universe. When I asked him what caused the big bang he said another big bang from another universe. I would have kept asking him what created that one, and so on, and so on, but then I remembered that man only lives for approximately three score and ten years, or so they say.
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Re: What's the battiest thing you ever heard a believer say?

#2  Postby Regina » Apr 20, 2019 6:54 pm

Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:I've never heard a believer say anything that strikes me as crazy.

Shaking one's keys at a polar bear will scare it away, because God gave man dominion over animals and installed fear of humans in them.

That's certifiably crazy as believing it while in the vicinity of a hungry polar bear will lead to death.


It certainly is. Hey check it out, an atheist once said to me in all seriousness that the reason why she doesn't believe in God is because if there was an creator of the universe - which we agreed would be uncreated if it did exist - then who created that creator?

Another atheist told me that the big bang is the origin of the universe. When I asked him what caused the big bang he said another big bang from another universe. I would have kept asking him what created that one, and so on, and so on, but then I remembered that man only lives for approximately three score and ten years, or so they say.

Not every atheist is an expert in cosmology.
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Re: What's the battiest thing you ever heard a believer say?

#3  Postby romansh » Apr 20, 2019 7:05 pm

Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:When I asked him what caused the big bang he said another big bang from another universe.

Of course this atheist's better answer would have been I don't know. But that is true for all of us in reality.

Making stuff up and believing it can be dangerous. I personally don't see much harm in thinking the universe is a product of other big bangs. But belief in a dogmatic version of Genesis leads to not handing out condoms in Africa, I see as not terribly helpful.
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Re: What's the battiest thing you ever heard a believer say?

#4  Postby Spearthrower » Apr 21, 2019 3:13 am

Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:
It certainly is.


You're welcome! Surprisingly easy though that even after you spent a whole lifetime not having heard a believer say something crazy, it was a matter of moments to have that experience. :cheers:


Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:Hey check it out, an atheist once said to me in all seriousness that the reason why she doesn't believe in God is because if there was an creator of the universe - which we agreed would be uncreated if it did exist - then who created that creator?


That is the problem with people of all stripes: they don't tend to think much before leaping to conclusions, or being led into traps.

She should have thought more before agreeing that the notional creator was uncreated, because if that's the case, then it undermines any argument that pertains to the apparent existence of said creator too. The universe, for example, could be uncreated and therefore it and everything in it not need a creator or exemplify it... and the universe is manifestly here.


Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:Another atheist told me that the big bang is the origin of the universe.


A scientifically incompetent atheist. That's fairly normal too. I mean, not as normal as scientifically incompetent theists, but let's not count beans.

The Big Bang, of course, is the expansion of the universe, not the origin of it.


Pridefel Knowitelz wrote: When I asked him what caused the big bang he said another big bang from another universe.


Really? :lol: That's as bad as the god hypothesis: big bangs all the way down.


Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:I would have kept asking him what created that one, and so on, and so on, but then I remembered that man only lives for approximately three score and ten years, or so they say.


Thanks to modern science, you can probably expect a few more years than that. :cheers:
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Re: What's the battiest thing you ever heard a believer say?

#5  Postby Spearthrower » Apr 21, 2019 3:14 am

Regina wrote:Not every atheist is an expert in cosmology.


Aye, but every proselytizing theist is an expert in everything. :cheers:
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Re: What's the battiest thing you ever heard a believer say?

#6  Postby Arcanyn » Apr 21, 2019 4:59 am

That's a big part of the appeal of that type of fantasy - getting to pretend you know all sort of stuff that you don't, without having to go through any of the boring tedium involved in actually having to work hard to learn things.
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Theism, atheism and science

#7  Postby Pridefel Knowitelz » Apr 21, 2019 10:02 am

Spearthrower wrote:
Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:
A scientifically incompetent atheist. That's fairly normal too. I mean, not as normal as scientifically incompetent theists, but let's not count beans.


Do you think we would be further ahead if it had been atheists who started the scientific tradition?
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Re: What's the battiest thing you ever heard a believer say?

#8  Postby Cito di Pense » Apr 21, 2019 10:16 am

Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:
A scientifically incompetent atheist. That's fairly normal too. I mean, not as normal as scientifically incompetent theists, but let's not count beans.


Do you think we would be further ahead if it had been atheists who started the scientific tradition?


Despite whatever dogmatic tendencies you might have, theistic belief does not require you to discard eveyrthing else you apprehend. After all, theistic belief is not data, but excessively imaginative interpretation. Anyone can spin a good yarn, but it takes real discipline to make the story conform to the facts. At the time the scientific tradition began, most people in Europe professed theistic belief. We have no idea how many were atheists, lying to save their skins. You probably can imagine how easy it is to lie about one's theistic belief.
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Re: What's the battiest thing you ever heard a believer say?

#9  Postby Hermit » Apr 21, 2019 10:21 am

Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:
A scientifically incompetent atheist. That's fairly normal too. I mean, not as normal as scientifically incompetent theists, but let's not count beans.

Do you think we would be further ahead if it had been atheists who started the scientific tradition?

In the times Keppler, Galileo, Newton, Darwin et. al. were alive all schools were run by religious establishments and no students were atheists. So, considering how the Catholic church persecuted and hounded those scientists, it's a wonder that the scientific revolution happened at all.

The contrast in beliefs between among scientists on one hand and the general public on the other is rather telling in regard to who is driving scientific progress now. From a 2009 Pew Reseach Center survey:

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Re: What's the battiest thing you ever heard a believer say?

#10  Postby Spearthrower » Apr 21, 2019 10:25 am

Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:
A scientifically incompetent atheist. That's fairly normal too. I mean, not as normal as scientifically incompetent theists, but let's not count beans.


Do you think we would be further ahead if it had been atheists who started the scientific tradition?



What scientific tradition?

You've used lots of words, but those words clearly mean something different to you than to me.

Perhaps you'd best unpack... in a relevant thread on a topic of your choosing, rather than on this thread which has a very clear and specific remit. There's an entire forum here with ample subfora for you to select which is most appropriate.

I'll be happy to answer your questions there once you explain what it is you want to ask.
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Re: What's the battiest thing you ever heard a believer say?

#11  Postby Fenrir » Apr 21, 2019 10:28 am

Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:
A scientifically incompetent atheist. That's fairly normal too. I mean, not as normal as scientifically incompetent theists, but let's not count beans.


Do you think we would be further ahead if it had been atheists who started the scientific tradition?



Thanks for providing an on-topic post I guess. :dunno:
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Re: What's the battiest thing you ever heard a believer say?

#12  Postby Spearthrower » Apr 21, 2019 10:31 am

This scientific tradition?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thales_of_Miletus

Or the scientific tradition of all humanity which predates history, which includes observing shit, guessing how shit works, then amending those guesses to account for unexpected outcomes?

Humans have been doing that as long as there have been humans, so that's a pretty extensive tradition. Were they atheists or theists? I don't think they were either because both labels would be anachronistic.
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Re: What's the battiest thing you ever heard a believer say?

#13  Postby Pridefel Knowitelz » Apr 21, 2019 10:32 am

Spearthrower wrote:
Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:
A scientifically incompetent atheist. That's fairly normal too. I mean, not as normal as scientifically incompetent theists, but let's not count beans.


Do you think we would be further ahead if it had been atheists who started the scientific tradition?



What scientific tradition?

You've used lots of words, but those words clearly mean something different to you than to me.

Perhaps you'd best unpack... in a relevant thread on a topic of your choosing, rather than on this thread which has a very clear and specific remit. There's an entire forum here with ample subfora for you to select which is most appropriate.

I'll be happy to answer your questions there once you explain what it is you want to ask.


Science, the progression of it, would it have advanced further if atheists had been the majority of scientists, is what I'm asking.
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Re: What's the battiest thing you ever heard a believer say?

#14  Postby Spearthrower » Apr 21, 2019 10:37 am

Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:
Science, the progression of it, would it have advanced further if atheists had been the majority of scientists, is what I'm asking.



Yes, I saw you asked that, but the problem is that it is largely a meaningless question because you have failed to define any of the working pieces in your question.

As such, I replied explaining why you would need to unpack those components. Note that I didn't say 'could you repeat yourself'?

You might be reifying science.... I don't know, but as I can't be expected to engage in some half-grasped incomplete comprehension, I would need to be able to challenge any assumptions you're making... in the appropriate place which is not this thread as this thread has a clear topic and remit.

I realize you just signed up to this forum... :whistle: ... but you must have also noticed you signed a forum user's agreement when doing so?

www.rationalskepticism.org/old-announce ... t-t76.html


Members of rationalskepticism.org agree to:

1.2 not...

g. try to take threads off-topic


So I will ask you courteously again. Please feel free to start your own thread on a topic of your choosing in a relevant subforum where I will be happy to answer your questions once we've made some sense of them.
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Re: What's the battiest thing you ever heard a believer say?

#15  Postby Pridefel Knowitelz » Apr 21, 2019 10:43 am

Spearthrower wrote:
Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:
Science, the progression of it, would it have advanced further if atheists had been the majority of scientists, is what I'm asking.



Yes, I saw you asked that, but the problem is that it is largely a meaningless question because you have failed to define any of the working pieces in your question.

As such, I replied explaining why you would need to unpack those components. Note that I didn't say 'could you repeat yourself'?

You might be reifying science.... I don't know, but as I can't be expected to engage in some half-grasped incomplete comprehension, I would need to be able to challenge any assumptions you're making... in the appropriate place which is not this thread as this thread has a clear topic and remit.

I realize you just signed up to this forum... :whistle: ... but you must have also noticed you signed a forum user's agreement when doing so?

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/old-a ... t-t76.html


Members of rationalskepticism.org agree to:

1.2 not...

g. try to take threads off-topic


So I will ask you courteously again. Please feel free to start your own thread on a topic of your choosing in a relevant subforum where I will be happy to answer your questions once we've made some sense of them.


No problem, if you want to address my question I'm sure you know your way around here well enough to find a more appropriate thread.
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Re: What's the battiest thing you ever heard a believer say?

#16  Postby newolder » Apr 21, 2019 10:46 am

Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:...

Science, the progression of it, would it have advanced further if atheists had been the majority of scientists, is what I'm asking.

With a sample size of 1 for "Science, the progression of it..." the statistical significance of any conclusion anent is moot. An outcome based on a toss of a coin is of equal merit.
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Atheism & Science

#17  Postby Spearthrower » Apr 21, 2019 10:50 am

Pridefel Knowitelz asked for some help in locating another, more appropriate thread in which to ask questions he/she has about atheism and science, and I am, of course, happy to assist:


http://www.rationalskepticism.org/gener ... l#p2691845

Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:Do you think we would be further ahead if it had been atheists who started the scientific tradition?



http://www.rationalskepticism.org/gener ... l#p2691850

Spearthrower wrote:What scientific tradition?

You've used lots of words, but those words clearly mean something different to you than to me.

Perhaps you'd best unpack...



Spearthrower wrote:This scientific tradition?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thales_of_Miletus

Or the scientific tradition of all humanity which predates history, which includes observing shit, guessing how shit works, then amending those guesses to account for unexpected outcomes?

Humans have been doing that as long as there have been humans, so that's a pretty extensive tradition. Were they atheists or theists? I don't think they were either because both labels would be anachronistic.



http://www.rationalskepticism.org/gener ... l#p2691854

Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:Science, the progression of it, would it have advanced further if atheists had been the majority of scientists, is what I'm asking.



http://www.rationalskepticism.org/gener ... l#p2691855

Spearthrower wrote:Yes, I saw you asked that, but the problem is that it is largely a meaningless question because you have failed to define any of the working pieces in your question.

As such, I replied explaining why you would need to unpack those components. Note that I didn't say 'could you repeat yourself'?

You might be reifying science.... I don't know, but as I can't be expected to engage in some half-grasped incomplete comprehension, I would need to be able to challenge any assumptions you're making...
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Re: What's the battiest thing you ever heard a believer say?

#18  Postby Spearthrower » Apr 21, 2019 10:50 am

Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:No problem, if you want to address my question I'm sure you know your way around here well enough to find a more appropriate thread.



Ahh I see. You wanted my help.

Well, as you asked so politely.

Here you go:

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/nonth ... l#p2691860
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Re: What's the battiest thing you ever heard a believer say?

#19  Postby Pridefel Knowitelz » Apr 21, 2019 11:00 am

Spearthrower wrote:
Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:No problem, if you want to address my question I'm sure you know your way around here well enough to find a more appropriate thread.



Ahh I see. You wanted my help.

Well, as you asked so politely.

Here you go:

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/nonth ... l#p2691860


Well that was bizarre. You've started a whole new thread all about how I asked you to find a thread where you could address a question that I asked you on this thread. Then you took the time to quote as well as link to every post in our conversation.

I don't get it. Look if you don't want to answer my question I think I'll be just fine, and if you do, then I'll be happy to read your answer wherever you choose to post it. But that thread man, it just seems weird and pointless.

Unless, of course, you actually think I'm that important that I deserve my own thread in which to ask people questions. Me, a newbie who's not even been here for 24 hours? I feel kinda bad saying this but I wouldn't start a thread dedicated to your questions, especially if you were an insignificant newbie like me.
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Re: Atheism & Science

#20  Postby Pridefel Knowitelz » Apr 21, 2019 11:07 am

I'm flattered that you felt the need to start a thread dedicated to my questions about atheism, even though I've just joined the forum. I don't really have any new questions right now, but erm...thanks.
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