Was Jesus perfect?

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Was Jesus perfect?

#1  Postby devogue » Apr 07, 2018 11:09 am

Putting aside the supernatural and the divine, was Jesus's character perfect as written in the New Testament? Perfectly "sinless", perfectly moral...from a human perspective.

The New Testament is beautifully written in many ways; it's a masterpiece as a study of the human condition, teeming with characters with wildly obvious but often deeply subtle flaws. But Jesus does seem to be the morally perfect human at the centre of the story.

Or is he?
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Re: Was Jesus perfect?

#2  Postby Sendraks » Apr 07, 2018 11:14 am

Jesus says plenty of pretty egotisical stuff in the bible.Clearly he was far from being morally perfect.

Matthew 10:37
Anyone who loves his father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me;


Luke 14:26
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
"One of the great tragedies of mankind is that morality has been hijacked by religion." - Arthur C Clarke

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Re: Was Jesus perfect?

#3  Postby devogue » Apr 07, 2018 11:22 am

Sendraks wrote:Jesus says plenty of pretty egotisical stuff in the bible.Clearly he was far from being morally perfect.

Matthew 10:37
Anyone who loves his father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me;


Luke 14:26
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.


But if he was the epitome of humanity, that moral speed of light we can reach for but never quite attain, aren't our parents and family forever 99.9999% of that, and only 100% true love for them can be reached by submitting to the human perfection, the perfect ego, of Christ?

Naturally I have six glasses of wine in me. I look forward to the horrors and wonders of what I have posted :drunk:
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Re: Was Jesus perfect?

#4  Postby Hermit » Apr 07, 2018 11:24 am

devogue wrote:Putting aside the supernatural and the divine, was Jesus's character perfect as written in the New Testament? Perfectly "sinless", perfectly moral...from a human perspective.

The New Testament is beautifully written in many ways; it's a masterpiece as a study of the human condition, teeming with characters with wildly obvious but often deeply subtle flaws. But Jesus does seem to be the morally perfect human at the centre of the story.

Or is he?
Didn't he get angry at a fig tree for not bearing figs out of season?

And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry: And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet. And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever.

Mark 11:12-14
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Re: Was Jesus perfect?

#5  Postby Fallible » Apr 07, 2018 11:25 am

I'm not sure what perfectly moral would look like. Morality is subjective.
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Re: Was Jesus perfect?

#6  Postby Sendraks » Apr 07, 2018 11:41 am

devogue wrote:
But if he was the epitome of humanity, that moral speed of light we can reach for but never quite attain, aren't our parents and family forever 99.9999% of that, and only 100% true love for them can be reached by submitting to the human perfection, the perfect ego, of Christ?


That's just assuming the conclusion. No different to "God is good, so if god wills it, it must be good."

This is a tough sell to children with parasites stuck in their eyes.
Or rape victims.
Or the victims of genocide/natural disasters/the Trump administration.
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Re: Was Jesus perfect?

#7  Postby devogue » Apr 07, 2018 11:42 am

Hermit wrote:
devogue wrote:Putting aside the supernatural and the divine, was Jesus's character perfect as written in the New Testament? Perfectly "sinless", perfectly moral...from a human perspective.

The New Testament is beautifully written in many ways; it's a masterpiece as a study of the human condition, teeming with characters with wildly obvious but often deeply subtle flaws. But Jesus does seem to be the morally perfect human at the centre of the story.

Or is he?
Didn't he get angry at a fig tree for not bearing figs out of season?

And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry: And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet. And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever.

Mark 11:12-14


A perfect example of humanity. Jesus had a strop - it's actually quite funny if you stick a :lol: at the end, but emojis weren't around then. If I was the messiah I'd ban pilchards for a laugh, and I'd still be morally perfect.

God creates figs, makes himself human, figs aren't in season so he bans humanity from eating them. Fucking brilliant. :lol:
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Re: Was Jesus perfect?

#8  Postby devogue » Apr 07, 2018 11:49 am

Sendraks wrote:
devogue wrote:
But if he was the epitome of humanity, that moral speed of light we can reach for but never quite attain, aren't our parents and family forever 99.9999% of that, and only 100% true love for them can be reached by submitting to the human perfection, the perfect ego, of Christ?


That's just assuming the conclusion. No different to "God is good, so if god wills it, it must be good."

This is a tough sell to children with parasites stuck in their eyes.
Or rape victims.
Or the victims of genocide/natural disasters/the Trump administration.


Yes, but we're born with worms in our eyes, wavy stupid blond hair, fat genes like me, musical know how like Paul McCartney, or the knowledge you are going to be nailed to a cross at 33 years of age.

We all have our crosses to bear (ahem), but as the NT makes clear Jesus was very, very human, with all of the fears we have (father let this cup pass me by). Again, remove the supernatural, stick to the text, his life and his teaching..
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Re: Was Jesus perfect?

#9  Postby Thommo » Apr 07, 2018 11:59 am

I don't recall the New Testament describing clear and genuine moral failings on the part of Jesus, but then it wouldn't, would it?

I've no idea how that would inform us about the historical person who inspired the stories though.
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Re: Was Jesus perfect?

#10  Postby Hermit » Apr 07, 2018 12:18 pm

devogue wrote:
Hermit wrote:
devogue wrote:Putting aside the supernatural and the divine, was Jesus's character perfect as written in the New Testament? Perfectly "sinless", perfectly moral...from a human perspective.

The New Testament is beautifully written in many ways; it's a masterpiece as a study of the human condition, teeming with characters with wildly obvious but often deeply subtle flaws. But Jesus does seem to be the morally perfect human at the centre of the story.

Or is he?
Didn't he get angry at a fig tree for not bearing figs out of season?

And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry: And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet. And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever.

Mark 11:12-14

A perfect example of humanity.

Yes indeed. You asked "was Jesus's character perfect as written in the New Testament? Perfectly "sinless", perfectly moral...from a human perspective." Bible says: "No". Chapter and verse quoted.

Feel free to redefine "perfect character", "perfectly sinless" and "perfectly moral", though, especially from "a human perspective".
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Re: Was Jesus perfect?

#11  Postby Animavore » Apr 07, 2018 12:23 pm

I think too much thought is going into this. I'm just gonna say No.
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Re: Was Jesus perfect?

#12  Postby devogue » Apr 07, 2018 12:25 pm

Hermit wrote:
devogue wrote:
Hermit wrote:
devogue wrote:Putting aside the supernatural and the divine, was Jesus's character perfect as written in the New Testament? Perfectly "sinless", perfectly moral...from a human perspective.

The New Testament is beautifully written in many ways; it's a masterpiece as a study of the human condition, teeming with characters with wildly obvious but often deeply subtle flaws. But Jesus does seem to be the morally perfect human at the centre of the story.

Or is he?
Didn't he get angry at a fig tree for not bearing figs out of season?

And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry: And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet. And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever.

Mark 11:12-14

A perfect example of humanity.

Yes indeed. You asked "was Jesus's character perfect as written in the New Testament? Perfectly "sinless", perfectly moral...from a human perspective." Bible says: "No". Chapter and verse quoted.

Feel free to redefine "perfect character", "perfectly sinless" and "perfectly moral", though, especially from "a human perspective".


Germans. No sense of humour :coffee:
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Re: Was Jesus perfect?

#13  Postby laklak » Apr 07, 2018 12:30 pm

I think he was a bit of a prick.
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Re: Was Jesus perfect?

#14  Postby Sendraks » Apr 07, 2018 12:31 pm

devogue wrote:Yes, but we're born with worms in our eyes,


No, no we're not. and you're also completely missing the point of what I said.

devogue wrote: Again, remove the supernatural, stick to the text, his life and his teaching..


I just quoted the text. It shows Jesus to be egotistical. You're trying to get around that by assuming the conclusion that Jesus is perfectly moral, to get around that shit.
"One of the great tragedies of mankind is that morality has been hijacked by religion." - Arthur C Clarke

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Re: Was Jesus perfect?

#15  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Apr 07, 2018 12:51 pm

Since we have no contemporay sources, nor reliable secondary sources, we have no basis to determine how Jesus acted, what he did or thought.
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Re: Was Jesus perfect?

#16  Postby Scot Dutchy » Apr 07, 2018 1:05 pm

If he ever existed.
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Re: Was Jesus perfect?

#17  Postby Hermit » Apr 07, 2018 1:11 pm

devogue wrote:
Hermit wrote:
devogue wrote:
Hermit wrote:Didn't he get angry at a fig tree for not bearing figs out of season?

And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry: And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet. And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever.

Mark 11:12-14

A perfect example of humanity.

Yes indeed. You asked "was Jesus's character perfect as written in the New Testament? Perfectly "sinless", perfectly moral...from a human perspective." Bible says: "No". Chapter and verse quoted.

Feel free to redefine "perfect character", "perfectly sinless" and "perfectly moral", though, especially from "a human perspective".

Germans. No sense of humour :coffee:

devogue wrote:Naturally I have six glasses of wine in me.

Naturally you imagined you posted something humorous.
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Re: Was Jesus perfect?

#18  Postby devogue » Apr 07, 2018 1:12 pm

I’m talking about the character depicted in the New Testament, and in particular the supposed
flawless humanity of that character.
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Re: Was Jesus perfect?

#19  Postby Sendraks » Apr 07, 2018 2:00 pm

The NT doesn't support him having a flawless character.
"One of the great tragedies of mankind is that morality has been hijacked by religion." - Arthur C Clarke

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Re: Was Jesus perfect?

#20  Postby Fallible » Apr 07, 2018 2:09 pm

What does flawless humanity even mean? Isn't an inherent characteristic of humans that they have flaws?
She battled through in every kind of tribulation,
She revelled in adventure and imagination.
She never listened to no hater, liar,
Breaking boundaries and chasing fire.
Oh, my my! Oh my, she flies!
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