What's the battiest thing you ever heard a believer say?

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Re: What's the battiest thing you ever heard a believer say?

#5001  Postby Animavore » Oct 05, 2017 6:52 am

Yeah, it's the real failure of the argument. We already know the ball has a designer and maker(s), it may even have the country of origin stamped on it. We know of things which don't have designers and makers like cliffs, moons, and organisms, which contain no stamp of a producer. We know that things designed and built by agencies are designed and built from the things which don't have design and agency, including the agencies themselves, and that designed things come after and stem from undesigned things. We also know that it has a material origin; it's made from stuff which already existed.

So how is the answer that a universe of undesigned things, which contains designed things as a subset, itself a designed thing, (stemming from, and a subset of, an undesigned thing, which unlike other undesigned things does not have a chain of undesigned causes preceding it), which somehow comes before the undesigned things, reversing the normal causality we see...

*deep breath*

A better answer than the universe is an undesigned thing, stemming from previous, undesigned stuff and causes, which produces, naturally, through evolution, agencies capable of designing and producing designed things, as an end result, from their undesigned environment, but also, as a corollary, able to, erroneously, run causality back from the things they design and build, through themselves and all other undesigned things, and backwards out the arse-end of the universe and through to another undesigned designer preceding a designed universe (as a start result book-ending and mirroring their own design at the far end) of undesigned, natural phenomena.


I'm pressing submit beause that took time and effort to tease out of my head. Not fully convinced it makes sense. Just finished a night-shift.
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Re: What's the battiest thing you ever heard a believer say?

#5002  Postby Animavore » Oct 05, 2017 11:56 am

Hmmm... I get what I was trying to say I guess.
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Re: What's the battiest thing you ever heard a believer say?

#5003  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Oct 05, 2017 10:27 pm

This guy thinks the problem of evil was already solved by Augustine:
Whence cometh evil
From man it's not a substance
Answered by Augustine.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: What's the battiest thing you ever heard a believer say?

#5004  Postby OlivierK » Oct 05, 2017 10:59 pm

I kind of appreciate the intellectual consistency of believers who claim evil comes from demons. As long as you've already claimed a benevolent God, claiming demons adds no further irrationality.
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Re: What's the battiest thing you ever heard a believer say?

#5005  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Oct 05, 2017 11:32 pm

OlivierK wrote:I kind of appreciate the intellectual consistency of believers who claim evil comes from demons. As long as you've already claimed a benevolent God, claiming demons adds no further irrationality.

All it does is demonstrate they havent read the bible..
It also doesnt actually adress the problem of evil, which isnt about the origin of evil, but why god allows evil and does not interfere.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: What's the battiest thing you ever heard a believer say?

#5006  Postby james1v » Oct 06, 2017 12:51 am

We can do what the Catalans have done...SNP Nazi. Who, like all his nationalista brethren, ignore their fellow countrymen and women, who told them categorically...No! Fascists, National Fascists.

They will not hear, they will not see, they will not care. Sociopaths.
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Re: What's the battiest thing you ever heard a believer say?

#5007  Postby OlivierK » Oct 06, 2017 6:26 am

Yeah, that's pretty batty.

Who said it?
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Re: What's the battiest thing you ever heard a believer say?

#5008  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Oct 06, 2017 8:46 am

Also, how do you know they're believers?
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: What's the battiest thing you ever heard a believer say?

#5009  Postby Aca » Oct 10, 2017 4:18 am

:smile:
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Re: What's the battiest thing you ever heard a believer say?

#5010  Postby zulumoose » Oct 10, 2017 6:06 am

Wow, they have finally realised that the whole basis of the argument against creationism is that we didn't witness it.
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Re: What's the battiest thing you ever heard a believer say?

#5011  Postby DavidMcC » Oct 10, 2017 2:58 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
OlivierK wrote:I kind of appreciate the intellectual consistency of believers who claim evil comes from demons. As long as you've already claimed a benevolent God, claiming demons adds no further irrationality.

All it does is demonstrate they havent read the bible..
It also doesnt actually adress the problem of evil, which isnt about the origin of evil, but why god allows evil and does not interfere.

I didn't realise how religious you were, Thomas. Maybe that explains your recent, angry outbursts against me in another thread.
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Re: What's the battiest thing you ever heard a believer say?

#5012  Postby Calilasseia » Oct 10, 2017 4:55 pm

In the meantime, referring back to that weird post from elsewhere Aca brought here, let's see ...

On the one hand, abundant evidence of testable natural processes, documented in several million scientific papers covering a vast span of disciplines, versus zero evidence of conjuring tricks by an invisible magic man ... hmm, what a difficult choice ... :D
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Re: What's the battiest thing you ever heard a believer say?

#5013  Postby Fallible » Oct 10, 2017 5:18 pm

DavidMcC wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
OlivierK wrote:I kind of appreciate the intellectual consistency of believers who claim evil comes from demons. As long as you've already claimed a benevolent God, claiming demons adds no further irrationality.

All it does is demonstrate they havent read the bible..
It also doesnt actually adress the problem of evil, which isnt about the origin of evil, but why god allows evil and does not interfere.

I didn't realise how religious you were, Thomas. Maybe that explains your recent, angry outbursts against me in another thread.


Stop trolling.
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Re: What's the battiest thing you ever heard a believer say?

#5014  Postby DavidMcC » Oct 11, 2017 11:54 am

Fallible wrote:
DavidMcC wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
OlivierK wrote:I kind of appreciate the intellectual consistency of believers who claim evil comes from demons. As long as you've already claimed a benevolent God, claiming demons adds no further irrationality.

All it does is demonstrate they havent read the bible..
It also doesnt actually adress the problem of evil, which isnt about the origin of evil, but why god allows evil and does not interfere.

I didn't realise how religious you were, Thomas. Maybe that explains your recent, angry outbursts against me in another thread.


Stop trolling.

A. I was not trolling.
B. I am not a believer.
Therefore, you are the troll here, even if you have a friend or two who would deny it.
Also, my remarks that you are complaining about are the resuit of TE trolling me, by following me round through different threads.
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Re: What's the battiest thing you ever heard a believer say?

#5015  Postby Sendraks » Oct 11, 2017 12:01 pm

David, the chronology of the comments shows you responding to Thomas. Therefore you followed Thomas here and by your own argument, that amounts to you trolling.

Furthermore, your comment to Thomas can be fairly described as trolling given that a) nothing about Thomas' comment suggests that he is a "believer" and b) regardless you've decided this can be attributed to Thomas' behaviour in other threads.
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Re: What's the battiest thing you ever heard a believer say?

#5016  Postby DavidMcC » Oct 11, 2017 12:36 pm

Sendraks wrote:David, the chronology of the comments shows you responding to Thomas. Therefore you followed Thomas here and by your own argument, that amounts to you trolling.

Furthermore, your comment to Thomas can be fairly described as trolling given that a) nothing about Thomas' comment suggests that he is a "believer" and b) regardless you've decided this can be attributed to Thomas' behaviour in other threads.

The point you seem to have missed is that he made an off-topic remark about me, so I was entitled to respond. Also, he has followed me around on other threads, and that was what I was referring to. Furthermore, he is the believer here, not me.
I note that you have recently become more aggressive towards me. Is it something I said to one of your mates?
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Re: What's the battiest thing you ever heard a believer say?

#5017  Postby Sendraks » Oct 11, 2017 12:40 pm

DavidMcC wrote:
The point you seem to have missed is that he made an off-topic remark about me, so I was entitled to respond.


Really? Where? Because I've looked at the exchange and I can see no basis for this entitlement.

DavidMcC wrote: Furthermore, he is the believer here, not me.

Why do you insist on erroneously asserting that Thomas is a believer? Are you being intentionally provocative?

DavidMcC wrote:I note that you have recently become more aggressive towards me. Is it something I said to one of your mates?

I note that you have recently started imagining aggression on my part.
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Re: What's the battiest thing you ever heard a believer say?

#5018  Postby DavidMcC » Oct 11, 2017 12:53 pm

Sendraks wrote:
DavidMcC wrote:
The point you seem to have missed is that he made an off-topic remark about me, so I was entitled to respond.


Really? Where? Because I've looked at the exchange and I can see no basis for this entitlement.

DavidMcC wrote: Furthermore, he is the believer here, not me.

Why do you insist on erroneously asserting that Thomas is a believer? Are you being intentionally provocative?

A recent post of his to me clearly implied that he believed in God. Of course he might have edited that post since, to remove the incriminating evidence.
DavidMcC wrote:I note that you have recently become more aggressive towards me. Is it something I said to one of your mates?

I note that you have recently started imagining aggression on my part.

It wasn't my imagination, you jumped in to this thread yesterday, just to have a go at me.
NB. All these recriminations from you are off-topic, and not justified.
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Re: What's the battiest thing you ever heard a believer say?

#5019  Postby Sendraks » Oct 11, 2017 1:08 pm

DavidMcC wrote:
A recent post of his to me clearly implied that he believed in God.

Correction - it implied to you that he believed in god. I see no such implications in what Thomas wrote and no justification on your part from making your comments to Thomas about him being a believer or how that might impact on his behaviour.

DavidMcC wrote:Of course he might have edited that post since, to remove the incriminating evidence.

What you quoted Thomas saying is the same as what Thomas originally posted, so the evidence doesn't support your idea that he's changed anything. Instead, you've simply interpreted Thomas' posts in what I'd describe a "singular fashion."

DavidMcC wrote:
It wasn't my imagination, you jumped in to this thread yesterday, just to have a go at me.

No I didn't. I commented in this thread today, not yesterday. And I am not having a "go at you" I am commenting in agreement with Fallible's post that what you said to Thomas amounts to trolling. This amounts to a critique of your behaviour, rather than of you as a person.

DavidMcC wrote:NB. All these recriminations from you are off-topic, and not justified.

As were your comments to Thomas.
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Re: What's the battiest thing you ever heard a believer say?

#5020  Postby DavidMcC » Oct 11, 2017 1:32 pm

Sendraks wrote:
DavidMcC wrote:
A recent post of his to me clearly implied that he believed in God.

Correction - it implied to you that he believed in god. I see no such implications in what Thomas wrote and no justification on your part from making your comments to Thomas about him being a believer or how that might impact on his behaviour.

...

No, the post I saw at the time unambiguously implied a belief in god on his part. Of course that may have been edited since.
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