What's the battiest thing you ever heard a believer say?

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Re: What's the battiest thing you ever heard a believer say?

#5781  Postby thinkerman » Jan 08, 2019 10:14 pm

scott1328 wrote:
thinkerman wrote:
scott1328 wrote:
thinkerman wrote:"There's no problem of evil. Evil doesn't really exist, it's only absence of good."

But of course, that solves it all :doh:

Then how can there be an "absence of good" when God is omnibenevolent and omnipresent?
Just to make clear: my "but of course, that solves it all" was sarcasm.

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Your sarcasm was clear.

The problem of evil (POE) is typically based on the apparent contradiction that the existence of evil is incompatible and contradictory to the commonly given attributes of God: omnipotence ,omniscience, omnibenevolence. What you quoted is an apologist's facile end-run around the POE by ruling out the existence of evil. The obvious retort is that "absence of good" is contradictory to the omnipresence and/or omnibenevolence of God.
Yes, indeed it remains in contradiction with the supposed qualities of god. But what strikes me as battiest bout this solution to the POE is that they seem to think that the reclassification of evil as 'absence of good' changes anything in the first place.

It's as if you're accused of lying and your defense is "it wasn't a lie, it was just an absence of truth".

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Re: What's the battiest thing you ever heard a believer say?

#5782  Postby Arcanyn » Jan 08, 2019 10:22 pm

The "debate" over that matter is just pure stubbornness. They create a god that has to be their perfect wish fulfillment fantasy - if it has any attributes that are lesser than they want it to have, then that's just unacceptable. Their god has to be all the things they want it to be! But then it's pointed out that if such a god existed, the world we live in would look very different to the one we live in. So rather than propose a god that is compatible with our world, they spend an extraordinary amount of effort to try to have their cake and eat it too. It's like if I were to decide I wanted to believe there's a being with a mortal aversion to the colour green, and the ability to change the colour of everything in the universe, purely by willing it. Someone then has the nerve to point out that there are a few too many green things in the universe, and asks why this green-hating entity hasn't changed everything green to a different colour. Rather than adjusting my view of what this entity must be like, I take this contradiction and call it "The Problem of Green", and act like it is this great theological mystery which only the most brilliant and learned of people could possibly "solve", rather than just being a product of my own stubbornness in wanting to believe in green eradicating entity while simultaneously living in a universe filled with green objects. Seriously people, just pick a more modest god already! Sure, such a god might be less appealing, but the universe doesn't revolve around satisfying your desires.
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Re: What's the battiest thing you ever heard a believer say?

#5783  Postby thinkerman » Jan 08, 2019 10:39 pm

That pretty much nails it. In stead of adapting to the facts, they indeed invent all sorts of complex pseudo explanations to make reality conform to their desired god.

In the case of the god of green they'd probably claim that the other colours aren't true or real, but only an absence of green...

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Re: What's the battiest thing you ever heard a believer say?

#5784  Postby Alan B » Jan 09, 2019 12:29 pm

Who are 'they'?

Might I suggest that the 'they', as mentioned, are the 'con-artists' who instituted a means of control of the populace followed by a regime to maintain that control. An invented supernatural deity is just a convenient tool to serve that purpose.
Leaders, religious or not, have used religion to maintain control throughout the ages. A modern example is Putin and his 'acceptance' of the Russian Orthodox Church, knowing full well that this would be the easiest way to control the religious 'peasant' community.
I have NO BELIEF in the existence of a God or gods. I do not have to offer evidence nor do I have to determine absence of evidence because I do not ASSERT that a God does or does not or gods do or do not exist.
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Re: What's the battiest thing you ever heard a believer say?

#5785  Postby scott1328 » Jan 09, 2019 1:07 pm

Arcanyn wrote:... It's like if I were to decide I wanted to believe there's a being with a mortal aversion to the colour green, and the ability to change the colour of everything in the universe, purely by willing it. Someone then has the nerve to point out that there are a few too many green things in the universe, and asks why this green-hating entity hasn't changed everything green to a different colour...


In fact there is a Being that has an aversion to the color octarine. He has expunged the universe of the color. The absence of this color is proof of His divine will.
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Re: What's the battiest thing you ever heard a believer say?

#5786  Postby Fenrir » Jan 09, 2019 1:33 pm

scott1328 wrote:
Arcanyn wrote:... It's like if I were to decide I wanted to believe there's a being with a mortal aversion to the colour green, and the ability to change the colour of everything in the universe, purely by willing it. Someone then has the nerve to point out that there are a few too many green things in the universe, and asks why this green-hating entity hasn't changed everything green to a different colour...


In fact there is a Being that has an aversion to the color octarine. He has expunged the universe of the color. The absence of this color is proof of His divine will.


Rubbish!

Everyone knows Octarine exists but is only visible to wizards and cats and is a kind of greenish-purple.
Religion: it only fails when you test it.-Thunderf00t.
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Re: What's the battiest thing you ever heard a believer say?

#5787  Postby Aca » Jan 16, 2019 5:10 pm

:scratch:
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Re: What's the battiest thing you ever heard a believer say?

#5788  Postby Alan B » Jan 16, 2019 5:17 pm

I don't think Buddha thought he was God...
I have NO BELIEF in the existence of a God or gods. I do not have to offer evidence nor do I have to determine absence of evidence because I do not ASSERT that a God does or does not or gods do or do not exist.
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Re: What's the battiest thing you ever heard a believer say?

#5789  Postby Aca » Jan 28, 2019 9:37 am

:doh:
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Re: What's the battiest thing you ever heard a believer say?

#5790  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Jan 28, 2019 2:53 pm

Aca wrote::scratch:

The premise: they forgot to make excplicit:
P1. To know God does not exist, one woul have to be omniscient.
P2. Only gods are omniscient.
C. To know God doesn't exist is to (claim to) be a god.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: What's the battiest thing you ever heard a believer say?

#5791  Postby Arcanyn » Jan 28, 2019 3:43 pm

P2 of course, is false. It is quite possible to conceive of a being which is omniscient, but has no other powers, and is quite, quite mortal.
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Re: What's the battiest thing you ever heard a believer say?

#5792  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Jan 28, 2019 7:37 pm

Arcanyn wrote:P2 of course, is false. It is quite possible to conceive of a being which is omniscient, but has no other powers, and is quite, quite mortal.

Even before getting to P2 or 1, the original post straw-mans atheism as a claim of knowledge of non-existence.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: What's the battiest thing you ever heard a believer say?

#5793  Postby Arcanyn » Feb 03, 2019 9:50 am

That too. You don't need to know with certainty that something isn't the case to consider there to be no reason to believe that something is the case. I see no reason to believe that my memory of going to the supermarket yesterday to pick up some milk, was actually a false one implanted in my head by Sauron. But I can never be 100% sure of that. Does that make saying "yesterday I went to the supermarket and bought some milk" a claim of omniscience?
Power doesn't corrupt, it reveals. Only when someone is free from constraints and consequences do they show their true character.

Sign the petition for the William Lane Craig/David Icke debate here:
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Re: What's the battiest thing you ever heard a believer say?

#5794  Postby Aca » Feb 12, 2019 5:53 pm

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Re: What's the battiest thing you ever heard a believer say?

#5795  Postby aban57 » Feb 12, 2019 6:57 pm

Aca wrote:


Wow. :what:
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Re: What's the battiest thing you ever heard a believer say?

#5796  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Feb 13, 2019 11:24 pm

Posted by a patronizing Christian who claims to teach theology and 'religion'..
Footnote: Before some idiot antitheist decides to ignore my entire argument and respond with the ill-advised and unoriginal rejoinder that there is no evidence for either religion or fairy tales, please be aware that until you can provide convincing evidence that a couple of billion people have an experience of Rumplestiltskin and that you have a historical document pertaining to be a record of his existence I am likely to find your response laughable.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: What's the battiest thing you ever heard a believer say?

#5797  Postby aban57 » Feb 13, 2019 11:26 pm

Nice strawman.
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