J Hubner wrote:
Oh and by the way, im not attempting to justify slavery im trying to explain it, and its relationship with the bible. So this is a big strawman of my position, and one aimed at trying to portray my words as ‘’evil’’ because they don’t rub the atheists of this forum dans le sens du poil.

.... and still no straightforward condemnation of slavery.

I don't have your big book of "How to act Morally and Make Friends" (aka) the Bible, yet... I have no problem deciding for myself that slavery is abhorrent in whatever shape or form.

I've been insulted??? Wow, I missed that. Must have been distracted by all the straw.

monkeyboy wrote:I've been insulted??? Wow, I missed that. Must have been distracted by all the straw.

I chose to let it pass as probably nothing more than incompetence. "Petunia" on the other hand.

To be fair, though, I've had to explain the petunias reference to one or two other people. Those already familiar with The Hitch Hiker's Guide To The Galaxy need read no further, of course. Those unfamiliar with said work, here's Chapter 18, which contains the material in question, viz:

Curiously enough, the only thing that went through the mind of the bowl of petunias as it fell was Oh no, not again. Many people have speculated that if we knew exactly why the bowl of petunias had thought that we would know a lot more about the nature of the universe than we do now.

Oh, and for those unfamiliar with Adams' magnum opus, we find out later in the series why the bowl of petunias thought that ... and why Arthur Dent is a sort of unwitting Grim Reaper. I won't spoil the plot by going into further details.

Indeed. And to anybody who hasn't read it, WHY THE FUCK NOT?!!

I used to read it to my youngest lad for his bedtime story. Half an hour a night - we did all the books. Happy days !

Same here. Both Dirk Gently books as well.

J Hubner wrote:Oh and monkeyboi, I would encourage you to read this: http://stevelutz.wordpress.com/2011/01/ ... e-slavery/

Quoted from the linked article (my bold):
1. The Bible is fundamentally against slavery. Most references in the Bible to slavery are negative–to the liberation of Israel from slavery to the Egyptians.
Exodus 6:6 “Therefore, say to the Israelites: ‘I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the yoke of the Egyptians. I will free you from being slaves to them, and I will redeem you with an outstretched arm and with mighty acts of judgment.
Redemption from slavery to sin is a common theme in the New Testament: Romans 6:15-22
Being freed from slavery is perhaps THE central metaphor for Christian experience in the Bible.
Redemption from "slavery to sin" is nothing to do with slavery as in the idea of one person owning another, totally misses the point.

Why the fuck is freedom from slavery a METAPHOR? Why isn't it in plain language like the countless other rulings and laws within the bible? If God can get all nitpicky about the fabric of people's clothing, why not, if that's what he ever allegedly intended by the cunning use of metaphor, doesn't God just come out and say he doesn't want people enslaving others? Stupid me, I forgot, he doesn't, he makes up the rules for keeping them.
Defence for God re slavery grade-FAIL

2. The Bible is a true story, and as such, deals with slavery as it exists. It helps real people deal with a real situation.
If you’re looking for an abolitionist tract, you’ll be disappointed. In the cultural contexts that the Bible was written to, calling for abolition made as much sense as you or I calling for the abolition of cars. It existed before the Jews were formed as a nation and it existed after Israel was conquered. Slavery, like divorce, is not preferred by God. Instead, it is allowed because of the hardness of men’s hearts.

God permitted slavery to exist in both Old and New Testament times. But this does not mean that slavery was a God-ordained system. Slavery was an invention of fallen man, not of God. Nevertheless, God allowed it to exist the way He allows other things to exist that He does not approve of: murder, lying, rape, theft, etc.

This has to be some of the most pathetic apologist drivel I've ever read. There is a story within the old testament whereby God wipes out the entire population of the planet except for the family of one drunken bloke and his floating menagerie for commiting the above offences. An omnipotent God could end all of these things at any time he likes and allegedly did once. He doesn't do anything about it though these days. Perhaps because he never actually did apart from in unfounded fables and we have seen through that shit.
He also doesn't allow these offences if you bother to read the book. He calls for capital punishment for things like murder, rape and some theft.
To equate slavery to these things is a complete misnomer. God does not have any words of condemnation for slavery, instead he has rules as to where slaves can be obtained, how long they can be kept for and how they can be treated, beaten and killed.

Defence for God re slavery grade-FAIL

3. The Bible–as a story–restricts slavery, by giving slaves rights.
Where many nations treated their slaves very badly, the Bible gave many rights and privileges to slaves. So, even though it isn’t the best way to deal with people, because God has allowed man freedom, slavery then exists. God instructed the Israelites to treat them properly.

Exodus 21:20-21

(Exodus 21:20-21) – “And if a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished. 21If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property.” The Bible acknowledged the slave’s status as the property of the master
Well praise be to God, what a generous fucker. What manner of fucked up thinking is going on in this guy's head. It's a priveledge to be somebody's property is it? OH for sure, the slave knows that if he is beaten to death on the spot or dies within the next couple of days, some punishment will be dished out. There is nothing though whatsoever preventing the owner from beating the slave in a less than fatal manner every single day if he so chooses, "for he is his property".

Defence for God re slavery grade-FAIL

4. The Bible Commands New Ways of Conduct for Both Slave & Master
EPHESIANS 6: 5Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. 6Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but like slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. 7Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not men, 8because you know that the Lord will reward everyone for whatever good he does, whether he is slave or free. 9And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him.

So basically, an instruction for slaves to get on with being slaves and slave owners to get on with being slave owners with the caveat that the slaves get on with it as though they were serving God and to the owners that they are in their own way slaves too, to God. This is by no means condemnation of slavery it is just God making sure everyone knows that he is the ultimate slave master and does not condemn it in any way, he promotes it.

Defence for God re slavery grade-FAIL

It is precisely THIS kind of new creation ethic, which radically changed master-slave relationships by regarding slaves as human beings, that led to men like John Newton and William Wilberforce to push for the abolition of slavery, out of their deep Christian convictions. Christianity is often blamed for slavery, when in fact it existed before Christianity, and it is because of Christianity that we have a morality, ethics, and impetus to regard ALL human beings as equal and created in the image of God.

Steaming excrement. Christianity is blamed for the continuation of slavery precisely because the bible promotes and legislates for it. Some christians may well have developed moral thinking which found slavery to be abhorrent but this thinking takes place independant of biblical morals which clearly do not condemn slavery. Christians are clearly capable of applying subjective moral thinking which is seperate from the absolute morality which is attributed to the bible by people who insist that all our morals come from within it. If that were the case, there would be no christians who tolerated homosexuality, none who found slavery to be abhorrent, none who found the death penalty to be immoral and countless other cases where the current moral thinking is at odds with that found within the bible.

Oh and by the way, im not attempting to justify slavery im trying to explain it, and its relationship with the bible. So this is a big strawman of my position, and one aimed at trying to portray my words as ‘’evil’’ because they don’t rub the atheists of this forum dans le sens du poil.

We understand slavery's relationship with the bible. Since the bible represents the customs and morals of the time it was written in, it's no wonder at all that slavery doesn't get a hard time of it. In just the same way that other issues were allegedly legislated for by God, so was slavery. It was not condemned, discouraged or prohibited by God wheras many other things were. Many things which are now ignored by many christians, such as the eating of shellfish and pork. These rules are still there though in the bible.
Now, if you're going to use the argument that somewhere else in the bible, some of these rules are countered by later scribblings, what you are in effect doing is saying that God got it wrong when he made his initial rules (so not perfect then) or you are saying that the bible contradicts itself (not perfect then).
If as the author of your linked article suggests, you are going to say some of it is metaphorical, you're left with the problem of interpretation. Who is to say whose interpretation is correct? You are left with a non literal version of the words being treated as gospel which has been interpreted with moral reasoning which comes from where?

Hubner, the big problem most of us had with your handling of this topic has been your description of slavery being a blast back in biblical times. You might not have been justifying slavery but you were hardly doing yourself any favours. Rather than admit that the bible most definitley does advocate slavery as evidenced by quotes from the bible, you have attempted to "explain" it all away with this pretence that biblical slavery was different to the slavery of more modern black Africans and people engaged in sweat shop industries today. It just simply doesn't wash. Slavery, in any shape or form is immoral. Your bible fails the morality test on this issue. You're just going to have to suck it up and accept it. It is not a source for absolute morality. It is a book that reflects the morals of bronze age desert dwellers with an upgrade to Roman era morals in the NT. It gives us an insight into the morals of the day but does not provide us with the morals which we are familiar with in today's society or as I mentioned earlier, there would be no tolerance within religion for homosexuals. There clearly is, even within the catholic church, since even the Pope hasn't been calling for their death as prescribed in the bible.

As for portraying your words as "evil", that's not my gig. I think you are wrong on several issues and I have addressed those points. I think you're struggling to accept criticism of the bible and the God it portrays and failing at attempting to defend your arguments about bible inspired morality and you don't like it. Sorry if you don't like that but don't expect an easy ride if you are going to write about an issue such as slavery in the way you have done.

J Hubner wrote:

monkeyboy wrote:Hubner,
I have read the piece you linked for me. Unfortunately, I'm away from my PC and hence unable to quote and have multiple windows open properly (on phone). I will be answering properly asap. For now though, thanks for the laughs.

You dont have to bother answering me. Read, do your own research and leave me alone. I answered your question, I probably wont be as patient if you keep repeating your biased assertions and strawmanning my position to the effect that I somehow ''support slavery''.


Kind regards.

I have answered you as promised. Please don't assume that I haven't already read and done my own research. Do you think I just brainfart my opinions into existence? As for you being patient regarding my arguments, you'll no doubt forgive me if I don't lose too much sleep over that. Perhaps you will struggle with accepting my position but before you lash out, maybe take a moment to consider just what you are losing patience with. Is it me, or is it the fact that I am right and have been able to support my arguments from the bible? The fact that my argument is supported by the bible ought to give you serious pause for thought before you start making assertions about things like slavery not being supported by it, which you did here:

The Bible does not support slavery or racism in the least, and don’t try to cite the curse of ham, That’s an apocryphal invention that only was added later on.

I have not at any point suggested that you personally support slavery. PLease provide the quote where I did and the first thing I shall do is retract it. I have though stated that your position in finding slavery to be immoral, quoted from the same post as above,

I’m certain slavery is immoral.

is at odds with the bible's position, further strengthening my argument that moral thinking comes from outwith the bible, your thinking being a shining example of exactly that. Thanks for strengthening my position.

Science is reasoned and thoroughly cross-examined, truth.