Which persuasion?

Christianity, Islam, Other Religions & Belief Systems.

Moderators: Blip, DarthHelmet86

Which persuasion?

#1  Postby Stein » Sep 12, 2017 10:11 am

Query: Is it possible to be an avid Ayn Rand proselytizer and still a theist?

Stein
Stein
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 2443

United States (us)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Which persuasion?

#2  Postby zulumoose » Sep 12, 2017 10:39 am

I asked this of the guy supporting the whole world on his shoulders once, expecting a definite answer, but
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Atlas Shrugged
User avatar
zulumoose
 
Posts: 3618

Country: South Africa
South Africa (za)
Print view this post

Re: Which persuasion?

#3  Postby felltoearth » Sep 12, 2017 10:52 am

Are you asking if someone can be completely delusional?
"Walla Walla Bonga!" — Witticism
User avatar
felltoearth
 
Posts: 12925
Age: 52

Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: Which persuasion?

#4  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Sep 12, 2017 10:56 am

Stein wrote:Query: Is it possible to be an avid Ayn Rand proselytizer and still a theist?

Stein

Why 'still'?
Both involve believing in unsubstantiated nonsense.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
User avatar
Thomas Eshuis
 
Name: Thomas Eshuis
Posts: 30767
Age: 30
Male

Country: Netherlands
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: Which persuasion?

#5  Postby Stein » Sep 12, 2017 2:27 pm

Rand is an explicit atheist. That's how come the word "still".

Stein
Stein
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 2443

United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Which persuasion?

#6  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Sep 12, 2017 2:47 pm

Stein wrote:Rand is an explicit atheist. That's how come the word "still".

Stein

And otherwise rational people are theists.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
User avatar
Thomas Eshuis
 
Name: Thomas Eshuis
Posts: 30767
Age: 30
Male

Country: Netherlands
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: Which persuasion?

#7  Postby Stein » Sep 12, 2017 3:02 pm

Is it possible to be both an avid Rand proselytizer and also a theist?

Stein
Stein
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 2443

United States (us)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Which persuasion?

#8  Postby John Platko » Sep 12, 2017 3:55 pm

Stein wrote:Query: Is it possible to be an avid Ayn Rand proselytizer and still a theist?

Stein


It's not only possible but the evidence suggests there are even examples of such people.



It helps if you are :scratch: :scratch: mentally flexible:

Last edited by John Platko on Sep 12, 2017 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I like to imagine ...
User avatar
John Platko
 
Name: John Platko
Posts: 9411
Male

Country: US
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Which persuasion?

#9  Postby felltoearth » Sep 12, 2017 3:57 pm

Stein wrote:Is it possible to be both an avid Rand proselytizer and also a theist?

Stein

It is possible to be generally delusional yes, as both positions are rationally inconsistent.
"Walla Walla Bonga!" — Witticism
User avatar
felltoearth
 
Posts: 12925
Age: 52

Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: Which persuasion?

#10  Postby Matthew Shute » Sep 12, 2017 4:02 pm

Stein wrote:Is it possible to be both an avid Rand proselytizer and also a theist?

Stein


Why not? Our hypothetical theist might like some parts of her screed so much that they're willing to overlook her atheism. Or they don't think her atheism is relevant to the bits that they do avidly endorse. Or their theism isn't of a sort that prevents them from promoting an atheist they're a fan of, presumably for reasons other than her atheism.

With a couple of seconds on Google, you can find stuff like this: https://www.theobjectivestandard.com/20 ... of-rights/
"Change will preserve us. It is the lifeblood of the Isles. It will move mountains! It will mount movements!" - Sheogorath
User avatar
Matthew Shute
 
Name: Matthew Shute
Posts: 3676
Age: 41

Antarctica (aq)
Print view this post

Re: Which persuasion?

#11  Postby felltoearth » Sep 12, 2017 4:12 pm

So many rabbit holes, so little time.
"Walla Walla Bonga!" — Witticism
User avatar
felltoearth
 
Posts: 12925
Age: 52

Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: Which persuasion?

#12  Postby Matthew Shute » Sep 12, 2017 4:18 pm

felltoearth wrote:So many rabbit holes, so little time.


Is it possible for delusional people to go down rabbit holes tangential to their original delusion? Well, :nod:
"Change will preserve us. It is the lifeblood of the Isles. It will move mountains! It will mount movements!" - Sheogorath
User avatar
Matthew Shute
 
Name: Matthew Shute
Posts: 3676
Age: 41

Antarctica (aq)
Print view this post

Re: Which persuasion?

#13  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Sep 12, 2017 5:39 pm

Stein wrote:Is it possible to be both an avid Rand proselytizer and also a theist?

Stein

Yes. Why would it not be?
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
User avatar
Thomas Eshuis
 
Name: Thomas Eshuis
Posts: 30767
Age: 30
Male

Country: Netherlands
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: Which persuasion?

#14  Postby Zadocfish2 » Sep 12, 2017 6:01 pm

Depends on the "theist" methodology you're using, I think. Rand-like objectivism runs completely counter to any religion that advocates the practice of love and kindness, almost to the extent that it runs counter to the basics of social progress and establishment.

Communism, Libertarianism, Objectivism... they're all ideas that work okay in somebody's head, but fall apart laughably when put into practice. But beliefs are flexible; very few beliefs are "mutually exclusive" unless they deal with the same subjects.
User formerly known as Falconjudge.

I am a Christian.
User avatar
Zadocfish2
 
Name: Justin
Posts: 608
Age: 28
Male

Country: USA
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Which persuasion?

#15  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Sep 12, 2017 6:06 pm

Zadocfish2 wrote:Depends on the "theist" methodology you're using, I think. Rand-like objectivism runs completely counter to any religion that advocates the practice of love and kindness, almost to the extent that it runs counter to the basics of social progress and establishment.

Have you met/seen Evangelical Christians in the US?

Zadocfish2 wrote:
Communism, Libertarianism, Objectivism... they're all ideas that work okay in somebody's head, but fall apart laughably when put into practice.

Can you give an example of communism being implemented on a significant scale?
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
User avatar
Thomas Eshuis
 
Name: Thomas Eshuis
Posts: 30767
Age: 30
Male

Country: Netherlands
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Which persuasion?

#16  Postby crank » Sep 12, 2017 6:16 pm

What about the kibbutz in Israel? Were they close enough?
“When you're born into this world, you're given a ticket to the freak show. If you're born in America you get a front row seat.”
-George Carlin, who died 2008. Ha, now we have human centipedes running the place
User avatar
crank
RS Donator
 
Name: Sick & Tired
Posts: 10362
Age: 5
Male

Country: 2nd miasma on the left
Pitcairn (pn)
Print view this post

Re: Which persuasion?

#17  Postby Zadocfish2 » Sep 12, 2017 6:42 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Zadocfish2 wrote:
Communism, Libertarianism, Objectivism... they're all ideas that work okay in somebody's head, but fall apart laughably when put into practice.

Can you give an example of communism being implemented on a significant scale?


Implemented? No, it always morphs into a brutal dictatorship when put into effect. That's kind of my point. When it's attempted, it inevitably deviates wildly from the ideal. It is, for all intents and purposes, impossible to implement on a significant scale.
User formerly known as Falconjudge.

I am a Christian.
User avatar
Zadocfish2
 
Name: Justin
Posts: 608
Age: 28
Male

Country: USA
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Which persuasion?

#18  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Sep 12, 2017 7:55 pm

Zadocfish2 wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Zadocfish2 wrote:
Communism, Libertarianism, Objectivism... they're all ideas that work okay in somebody's head, but fall apart laughably when put into practice.

Can you give an example of communism being implemented on a significant scale?


Implemented? No, it always morphs into a brutal dictatorship when put into effect. That's kind of my point.

Can you give an example of communism being put into effect?

Zadocfish2 wrote: When it's attempted, it inevitably deviates wildly from the ideal.

And is this because of communism or because of people (a)busing communism to implement a whole different type of government?

Zadocfish2 wrote: It is, for all intents and purposes, impossible to implement on a significant scale.

I don't think we can reasonably say that because afaik it's never really been attempted.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
User avatar
Thomas Eshuis
 
Name: Thomas Eshuis
Posts: 30767
Age: 30
Male

Country: Netherlands
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: Which persuasion?

#19  Postby Zadocfish2 » Sep 12, 2017 8:17 pm

Well, it was attempted in Soviet Russia and in China... same thing happened both times, and frankly, if you look at how Communism is SUPPOSED to work, it's obvious where it'd be impossible.

That is, it involves mass distribution according to government mandates. There is ALWAYS going to be strong incentives to fudge the results in your own favor, when in that position, and there isn't much in the way of checks and balances that could dissuade that incentive. The system is, by necessity, too centralized, and requires too much central power to function without becoming a fascist state.
User formerly known as Falconjudge.

I am a Christian.
User avatar
Zadocfish2
 
Name: Justin
Posts: 608
Age: 28
Male

Country: USA
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Which persuasion?

#20  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Sep 12, 2017 8:31 pm

Zadocfish2 wrote:Well, it was attempted in Soviet Russia and in China

Except that it wasn't.
In both cases communism never came of the ground as both communist groups were taken over by dictatorial leaders before any attempt could be made to implement communism.

Zadocfish2 wrote:... same thing happened both times, and frankly, if you look at how Communism is SUPPOSED to work, it's obvious where it'd be impossible.

It was also obvious that the earth was flat.

Zadocfish2 wrote:
That is, it involves mass distribution according to government mandates.

Does it? Citations?

Zadocfish2 wrote: There is ALWAYS going to be strong incentives to fudge the results in your own favor, when in that position,

This is true for any political system and as such not an argument against communism specifically.

Zadocfish2 wrote: and there isn't much in the way of checks and balances that could dissuade that incentive. The system is, by necessity, too centralized, and requires too much central power to function without becoming a fascist state.

What constitutes to much central power?
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
User avatar
Thomas Eshuis
 
Name: Thomas Eshuis
Posts: 30767
Age: 30
Male

Country: Netherlands
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Next

Return to Theism

Who is online

Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 1 guest