Who established the canon of the New Testament??

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Re: Who established the canon of the New Testament??

#21  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 08, 2018 12:21 pm

Alan B wrote:YSomehow I'm guessing that this Jesus fellow would condemn outright the shenanigans that has resulted "in his name" by a bunch of self-righteous twats whose only aim seemed to be control and repression of the gullible.


Why would you be guessing that? Because, um, the self-righteous twats who come after Jesus is supposed to have spoken? How does that show the self-righteous twats supplanted anything?
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Re: Who established the canon of the New Testament??

#22  Postby Alan B » Jun 08, 2018 1:18 pm

Have another go. You are not making sense.
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Re: Who established the canon of the New Testament??

#23  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 08, 2018 1:28 pm

Alan B wrote:Have another go. You are not making sense.


Well, you are the arbiter of what makes sense to you or not. However, let us not presume this topic is supposed to make sense. It is, after all, about the supposed canon of the New Testament.
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Re: Who established the canon of the New Testament??

#24  Postby duvduv » Jun 08, 2018 2:01 pm

I find it somewhat curious and humorous that people condemn my view by personal insult rather than substantive discussion. The bottom line is that neither the author using the name Justin, nor the one using Iraeneus nor anyone else explains who, when and how the canon of only 4 gospels etc. was established as the official canon in the first century for the divine religion of Christianity that they believed in.
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Re: Who established the canon of the New Testament??

#25  Postby PensivePenny » Jun 08, 2018 2:22 pm

duvduv wrote:I find it somewhat curious and humorous that people condemn my view by personal insult rather than substantive discussion. The bottom line is that neither the author using the name Justin, nor the one using Iraeneus nor anyone else explains who, when and how the canon of only 4 gospels etc. was established as the official canon in the first century for the divine religion of Christianity that they believed in.


Maybe it's because you're trying to find a specific point in history where Christianity began. Isn't that like asking when did the first human pop into existence? It's an evolutionary process that produced different flavors of "christianity" and we are still seeing it evolve today.

Do you really believe in the magical miracles reported in some of the ancient texts? Do you believe Zeus threw lightning bolts? (See ETA below) I mean, see christianity for what it is, a cult, a viral cult, by today's vernacular. It all started when a man, IF we give at least that much credence to the texts that Jesus actually lived... and IF he actually had a philosophy.. and IF he actually traipsed around Galilee preaching his philosophy then, didn't the first canonization begin with the very first person who took it upon himself to write the first texts? Isn't that all the gospels are? Just an attempt to clot together some cohesive dictates by the object of their obsession? It's almost certain that in 30 AD we would not recognize the teachings of Jesus as what we recognize as "christianity" today, anymore than we would recognize our Miocene ancestor as our mother-in-law.

*ETA for calrity, inserted where indicated above: I'm giving the OP the benefit of the doubt here that you do not believe in magic and that the reports of miracles are the efforts by some to embellish the events being reported, making them seem like more than they are, making it seem as if there is some supernatural power at work in order to give credence to the concept of a Messiah. It should be self-evident that in the super-inflation of the contemporary events of the time, that it is the primordial beginnings of a religion. I'm making the argument that that is indeed the beginning of canonization.
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Re: Who established the canon of the New Testament??

#26  Postby Sendraks » Jun 08, 2018 2:25 pm

duvduv wrote:I find it somewhat curious and humorous that people condemn my view by personal insult rather than substantive discussion.


I'm curious as to why you think people have condemned your view by personal insult.
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Re: Who established the canon of the New Testament??

#27  Postby PensivePenny » Jun 08, 2018 2:29 pm

Sendraks wrote:
duvduv wrote:I find it somewhat curious and humorous that people condemn my view by personal insult rather than substantive discussion.


I'm curious as to why you think people have condemned your view by personal insult.


Yeah, I didn't get that either... maybe I missed a post?
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Re: Who established the canon of the New Testament??

#28  Postby Sendraks » Jun 08, 2018 2:48 pm

PensivePenny wrote:
Yeah, I didn't get that either... maybe I missed a post?


Probably not. It is a fairly par for the course phenomenon that people take criticism of their behaviour as a personal insult.
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Re: Who established the canon of the New Testament??

#29  Postby Hermit » Jun 08, 2018 5:14 pm

Sendraks wrote:
duvduv wrote:I find it somewhat curious and humorous that people condemn my view by personal insult rather than substantive discussion.

I'm curious as to why you think people have condemned your view by personal insult.

Well, Duvduv's question is said to be agenda-driven, his thread title is disingenuous, you are feeling generous in giving the benefit of the doubt of laziness and Cito exhorts us not to not to presume this topic is supposed to make sense. All these comments may be justified, but they are negative and at least indirectly personal.
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Re: Who established the canon of the New Testament??

#30  Postby SkyMutt » Jun 08, 2018 5:20 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
SkyMutt wrote:

Your posting of that link strongly suggests that you believe the Council of Nicea established the canon. Ever since Dan Brown's misinformation-packed fantasies became popular, that's been considered common knowledge. It also is almost certainly untrue.

How do you know this?


Earlier in this thread, I provided a link to a previous post which gives a brief description of some of the most relevant historical evidence, with links. No reputable historical scholar that I'm aware of accepts the idea that the First Council of Nicea produced a biblical canon of any sort. Note that the Wikipedia page on the First Council of Nicea that Sendraks linked to doesn't say that that synod produced a biblical canon. In fact it includes a section on the historical misconception I've pointed out. It does describe canon law promulgated at the synod, which is something else entirely.

We could go into the historiography of this issue but I doubt anyone here is particularly interested, though some would possibly find it gratifying to sneer at such a discussion.
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Re: Who established the canon of the New Testament??

#31  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 08, 2018 5:25 pm

SkyMutt wrote:No reputable historical scholar that I'm aware of accepts the idea that the First Council of Nicea produced a biblical canon of any sort.


There aren't any reputable historical scholars, here. What reputable scholars accept is like a tree falling in the forest and not making a sound. It's when they can demonstrate what they accept that other kinds of scholars will pay attention.

People cite the First Council of Nicea when they have nothing better to cite, and that should please you no end. Resorting to reputable scholars is quite unnecessary, unless you are one.
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Re: Who established the canon of the New Testament??

#32  Postby PensivePenny » Jun 08, 2018 5:37 pm

Let's compare and contrast, shall we?

condemned view........................................... personal insult
question is agenda-driven................................ He is agenda-driven (admittedly, not much of an insult)
thread title is disingenuous.....................................He is disingenuous (Even saying, "he is being disingenuous," isn't an insult as it is a temporary state of being)
benefit of doubt of laziness..................................... He's lazy (benefit of doubt defends that he is in fact NOT lazy)
not to presume this topic is supposed to make sense..... There's no personal insult there. This is Cito afterall... he's the skeptic's skeptic. He begins all interpretations of text as meaningless drivel. LOL

In all those cited cases the work is being attacked, not the individual. "Yellow Submarine" was pure shite (my opinion), but that in no way is an attack on the Beatles.
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Re: Who established the canon of the New Testament??

#33  Postby Tracer Tong » Jun 09, 2018 4:53 pm

SkyMutt wrote:
Earlier in this thread, I provided a link to a previous post which gives a brief description of some of the most relevant historical evidence, with links. No reputable historical scholar that I'm aware of accepts the idea that the First Council of Nicea produced a biblical canon of any sort. Note that the Wikipedia page on the First Council of Nicea that Sendraks linked to doesn't say that that synod produced a biblical canon. In fact it includes a section on the historical misconception I've pointed out. It does describe canon law promulgated at the synod, which is something else entirely.

We could go into the historiography of this issue but I doubt anyone here is particularly interested, though some would possibly find it gratifying to sneer at such a discussion.


I'd probably be interested. This is one of the things I'd devote more time to if I had it.
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Re: Who established the canon of the New Testament??

#34  Postby duvduv » Jun 11, 2018 7:44 pm

Can we get back to the substance of this thread??
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Re: Who established the canon of the New Testament??

#35  Postby theropod » Jun 11, 2018 10:23 pm

duvduv wrote:Can we get back to the substance of this thread??


Which would be what, exactly? It has been shown that the canon evolved over time. What is canon for one sect isn’t to another. Cat herding.

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Re: Who established the canon of the New Testament??

#36  Postby Hermit » Jun 12, 2018 1:05 am

duvduv wrote:Can we get back to the substance of this thread??

It's been dealt with. In case you had not read along, here's the summary again:

The answer to the question "Who established the canon of the New Testament??" from wikisource.org:
The idea of a complete and clear-cut canon of the New Testament existing from the beginning, that is from Apostolic times, has no foundation in history. The Canon of the New Testament, like that of the Old, is the result of a development, of a process at once stimulated by disputes with doubters, both within and without the Church, and retarded by certain obscurities and natural hesitations, and which did not reach its final term until the dogmatic definition of the Tridentine Council.

The dogmatic definition of the Tridentine Council (1545 -1563) of course only applies to the Catholic Church. Prior to that the Orthodox and the Protestant Churches had already arrived at different dogmatic definitions, which is why the Bibles of each regard different numbers of books in the Bible as canonical. Different authorities, different outcomes.

In short, what is canonical has never been established. It has been asserted and revised many times by more or less self-appointed authoritative bodies and therefore the first instance of such is no more authoritative as the latest. All instances are outcomes determined by whose power prevailed at the time rather than what was THE TRUTH™.
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Re: Who established the canon of the New Testament??

#37  Postby duvduv » Jun 12, 2018 11:45 pm

There is some confusion here. Regardless of development, the Jewish canon was authorized by the highest legal authority in ancient times, the Sanhedrin, known as the Men of the Great Assembly. No Christian apologist has ever identified a similar body when advocating in the earliest period a canon of Christian books.
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Re: Who established the canon of the New Testament??

#38  Postby Hermit » Jun 13, 2018 2:37 am

duvduv wrote:There is some confusion here. Regardless of development, the Jewish canon was authorized by the highest legal authority in ancient times, the Sanhedrin, known as the Men of the Great Assembly.

Yes, you seem a little confused now. The only reason other than that for talking about the Tanakh after creating this thread, titled "Who established the canon of the New Testament??" might be that you are trolling now.

As for your assertion itself, I shall refer you to the Wikipedia once again; this time to the article titled Development of the Hebrew Bible canon. From its introduction:
There is no scholarly consensus as to when the Hebrew Bible canon was fixed: some scholars argue that it was fixed by the Hasmonean dynasty (140–40 BCE), while others argue it was not fixed until the second century CE or even later. The Catholic Pontifical Biblical Commission says that "the more restricted Hebrew canon is later than the formation of the New Testament".
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Re: Who established the canon of the New Testament??

#39  Postby duvduv » Jun 16, 2018 4:41 am

I am not inquiring about Wikipedia's explanation. I am talking about what Judaism and Christianity say about the canons. Judaism has a narrative for who established the biblical canon. Christianity has no such narrative for the establishment of the New Testament canon.
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Re: Who established the canon of the New Testament??

#40  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 16, 2018 7:58 am

duvduv wrote:I am not inquiring about Wikipedia's explanation. I am talking about what Judaism and Christianity say about the canons. Judaism has a narrative for who established the biblical canon. Christianity has no such narrative for the establishment of the New Testament canon.


Do you think a narrative dependably helps anyone but you? Give us your theory of narratives and canons.
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