Who established the canon of the New Testament??

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Who established the canon of the New Testament??

#1  Postby duvduv » Jun 07, 2018 12:18 am

IF the NT existed in the 1st and 2nd century what was the official authority that established which texts were divinely inspired for inclusion and which were not?

How could a book allegedly written by Iraeneus or Justin or anyone else claim divine authority for the 4 gospels and the epistles etc. in the first or second century if no authority (i.e. Council of Hippo and Carthage) existed to established the canon of 4 gospels, etc.?

How on earth can anyone logically believe in all the claims of the NT existing in the first or even the second century when there was no authority to establish its canon for the allegedly existing religion?!!
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Re: Who established the canon of the New Testament??

#2  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 07, 2018 10:28 am

Who established the canon of the New Testament? And why should anyone care who's not in a cloister somewhere?

Do you understand the second question, duvduv? Let me repeat, more bluntly: Who gives a flying fuck?
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Re: Who established the canon of the New Testament??

#3  Postby Sendraks » Jun 07, 2018 10:39 am

"One of the great tragedies of mankind is that morality has been hijacked by religion." - Arthur C Clarke

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Re: Who established the canon of the New Testament??

#4  Postby rplatell » Jun 07, 2018 1:17 pm

duvduv wrote:How on earth can anyone logically believe in ...


Ah, I think I see your problem there...
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Re: Who established the canon of the New Testament??

#5  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 07, 2018 2:57 pm

rplatell wrote:
duvduv wrote:How on earth can anyone logically believe in ...


Ah, I think I see your problem there...



I think what duvduv really means to address is the canyon of the New Testament. It has holes into which you could drive a truck.
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Re: Who established the canon of the New Testament??

#6  Postby PensivePenny » Jun 07, 2018 3:56 pm

FIFY

duvduv wrote:IF the NT existed in the 1st and 2nd century what was the official authority that established which texts were divinely inspired for inclusion and which were not?

How could a book allegedly written by Iraeneus or Justin or anyone elseclaim divine authorityfor the 4 gospels and the epistles etc. in the first or second century if no authority (i.e. Council of Hippo and Carthage) existed to established the canon of 4 gospels, etc.?


And...


How on earth can anyone logically believe in all the claims of the NT existing in the first or even the second century when there was no authority to establish its canon for the allegedly existing religion?!!


You mean as opposed to the "authority" possessed by the Nicene Council responsible for the legitimate sanction of real Christianity? :eh:

Any "authority" is merely a man or group of men self-proclaiming divine authority. By that measure, David Koresh, Jim Jones and Charles Manson are all on even footing with the Pope, the Nicene Council and anyone else claiming divine authority.
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Re: Who established the canon of the New Testament??

#7  Postby laklak » Jun 07, 2018 9:15 pm

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Re: Who established the canon of the New Testament??

#8  Postby Blackadder » Jun 07, 2018 10:32 pm

laklak wrote:I'm the fucking Pope, that's who I am! - John Cleese


Is that different from the drinking Pope and the gambling Pope? Or are they but one Pope in three forms?
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Re: Who established the canon of the New Testament??

#9  Postby SkyMutt » Jun 08, 2018 12:14 am



There is practically no evidence that First Council of Nicea establised the canon of the New Testament. Your source states that it promulgated early canon law, which is something else entirely. Please see my earlier post on this question.

ETA: As for the OP, assuming we discount the disputed claim for the Council of Laodicea, the earliest generally accepted example of an attempt to set forth a canon is in the 39th Paschal (or Festal) Letter of Athanasius. I know that's irrelevant to duvduv's agenda-driven question though. :smoke:
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Re: Who established the canon of the New Testament??

#10  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 08, 2018 8:14 am

SkyMutt wrote:
There is practically no evidence that First Council of Nicea establised the canon of the New Testament.


So what? If that's the kind of fact you want to chase, you are welcome to it.

SkyMutt wrote: assuming we discount the disputed claim for the Council of Laodicea, the earliest generally accepted example of an attempt to set forth a canon is ...


As I said...

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Re: Who established the canon of the New Testament??

#11  Postby Arcanyn » Jun 08, 2018 8:18 am

It's all pretty simple. You have a whole bunch of Christianities, each with their own canon, who believe that all the other groups are dirty little heretics. Eventually, one of these groups gets the power to have all the other groups killed, which makes their canon the correct one.
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Re: Who established the canon of the New Testament??

#12  Postby Sendraks » Jun 08, 2018 8:20 am

SkyMutt wrote:There is practically no evidence that First Council of Nicea establised the canon of the New Testament. Your source states that it promulgated early canon law, which is something else entirely. Please see my earlier post on this question.


1. What Cito said.
2. The point of the link was more to demonstrate that this stuff can be looked up online readily enough, if one cares to chase such facts. Which, even though I posted a link with no clarification, still makes me less lazy than the OP.
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Re: Who established the canon of the New Testament??

#13  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 08, 2018 8:23 am

Sendraks wrote:
SkyMutt wrote:There is practically no evidence that First Council of Nicea establised the canon of the New Testament. Your source states that it promulgated early canon law, which is something else entirely. Please see my earlier post on this question.


1. What Cito said.
2. The point of the link was more to demonstrate that this stuff can be looked up online readily enough, if one cares to chase such facts. Which, even though I posted a link with no clarification, still makes me less lazy than the OP.


Well, that's what I was suggesting. How is it important who established the canon of the New Testament? I'm not saying out of hand that it isn't important, but if you think it is, show how it bends a fucking spoon. Since people argue endlessly about it, no spoons are going to be bent.

We can always hope, right?
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Re: Who established the canon of the New Testament??

#14  Postby SkyMutt » Jun 08, 2018 8:42 am

Cito di Pense wrote:
SkyMutt wrote:
There is practically no evidence that First Council of Nicea establised the canon of the New Testament.


So what? If that's the kind of fact you want to chase, you are welcome to it.


So I've studied history all my life because I find it worthwhile, and am willing to share what I've learned with anybody who shows an interest. I also will occasionally provide what I think is accurate information to counter common misconceptions. My atheism doesn't prevent me from learning about religious history. I think it would be silly of me to ignore it, considering how important religion has been to our species during the relatively recent era in which we've managed to chronicle our activities.

Cito di Pense wrote:
SkyMutt wrote:
SkyMutt wrote: assuming we discount the disputed claim for the Council of Laodicea, the earliest generally accepted example of an attempt to set forth a canon is ...


As I said...

If you're regurgitating what you studied in school and think you can make it pay, show me the money.


Nah, I enjoy learning about history and money has never come into it, except in purchasing history books. I'm used to people thinking that's a waste of time and money.
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Re: Who established the canon of the New Testament??

#15  Postby SkyMutt » Jun 08, 2018 8:58 am

Sendraks wrote:
SkyMutt wrote:There is practically no evidence that First Council of Nicea establised the canon of the New Testament. Your source states that it promulgated early canon law, which is something else entirely. Please see my earlier post on this question.


1. What Cito said.
2. The point of the link was more to demonstrate that this stuff can be looked up online readily enough, if one cares to chase such facts. Which, even though I posted a link with no clarification, still makes me less lazy than the OP.


I don't think duvduv is lazy. If anything his thread title is disingenuous.

Your posting of that link strongly suggests that you believe the Council of Nicea established the canon. Ever since Dan Brown's misinformation-packed fantasies became popular, that's been considered common knowledge. It also is almost certainly untrue.
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Re: Who established the canon of the New Testament??

#16  Postby Sendraks » Jun 08, 2018 9:03 am

SkyMutt wrote:I don't think duvduv is lazy. If anything his thread title is disingenuous.

I suspect you are right but, I was being a generous to him and giving the benefit of the doubt of laziness.

SkyMutt wrote:
Your posting of that link strongly suggests that you believe the Council of Nicea established the canon.Ever since Dan Brown's misinformation-packed fantasies became popular, that's been considered common knowledge. It also is almost certainly untrue.


Well if you want to think that on the basis of a single link, extrapolating what I think on the basis of whatever pop-culture trope appeals to you, then you are free to do so. If that's important to you. :coffee:
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Re: Who established the canon of the New Testament??

#17  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Jun 08, 2018 9:40 am

SkyMutt wrote:

Your posting of that link strongly suggests that you believe the Council of Nicea established the canon. Ever since Dan Brown's misinformation-packed fantasies became popular, that's been considered common knowledge. It also is almost certainly untrue.

How do you know this?
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Re: Who established the canon of the New Testament??

#18  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 08, 2018 9:44 am

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
SkyMutt wrote:

Your posting of that link strongly suggests that you believe the Council of Nicea established the canon. Ever since Dan Brown's misinformation-packed fantasies became popular, that's been considered common knowledge. It also is almost certainly untrue.

How do you know this?


It's almost certainly untrue because everyone is still guessing. That doesn't mean SkyMutt has anything to tell us, unless he can show how someone is not still just guessing.
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Re: Who established the canon of the New Testament??

#19  Postby Hermit » Jun 08, 2018 9:52 am

duvduv wrote:IF the NT existed in the 1st and 2nd century what was the official authority that established which texts were divinely inspired for inclusion and which were not?

How could a book allegedly written by Iraeneus or Justin or anyone else claim divine authority for the 4 gospels and the epistles etc. in the first or second century if no authority (i.e. Council of Hippo and Carthage) existed to established the canon of 4 gospels, etc.?

How on earth can anyone logically believe in all the claims of the NT existing in the first or even the second century when there was no authority to establish its canon for the allegedly existing religion?!!

From wikisource.org:
The idea of a complete and clear-cut canon of the New Testament existing from the beginning, that is from Apostolic times, has no foundation in history. The Canon of the New Testament, like that of the Old, is the result of a development, of a process at once stimulated by disputes with doubters, both within and without the Church, and retarded by certain obscurities and natural hesitations, and which did not reach its final term until the dogmatic definition of the Tridentine Council.

The dogmatic definition of the Tridentine Council (1545 -1563) of course only applies to the Catholic Church. Prior to that the Orthodox and the Protestant Churches had already arrived at different dogmatic definitions, which is why the Bibles of each regard different numbers of books in the Bible as canonical. Different authorities, different outcomes.

In short, what is canonical has never been established. It has been asserted and revised many times by more or less self-appointed authoritative bodies and therefore the first instance of such is no more authoritative as the latest. All instances are outcomes determined by whose power prevailed at the time rather than what was THE TRUTH™.

I suggest you address your questions about authoritative versions of the Bible to the various Christian denominations and watch the ensuing bunfight. Should be good for a laugh as long as people accused of heresy are not burnt at the stake.
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Re: Who established the canon of the New Testament??

#20  Postby Alan B » Jun 08, 2018 12:18 pm

Yeah, but what we really need to know is if Jeebus fired off a few canons (sic) himself...

Somehow I'm guessing that this Jesus fellow would condemn outright the shenanigans that has resulted "in his name" by a bunch of self-righteous twats whose only aim seemed to be control and repression of the gullible.
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