Who Made God?

The ultimate question?

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Re: Who Made God?

#201  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Oct 20, 2016 11:07 pm

jamest wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
jamest wrote:
newolder wrote:Perfect circles and gods are ideas in brains. Neither has been observed externally.

Don't be a silly billy, squire.

Don't try to hide your failure to actually refute his point, by arrogance, peasant.

Correct... jamest is the lowest of peasants, squire.

Conversely, cut the rest of your shit out.

Continued failure to refute the original point, has not been hidden by your flippant reply.
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Re: Who Made God?

#202  Postby jamest » Oct 20, 2016 11:18 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
jamest wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
jamest wrote:
Don't be a silly billy, squire.

Don't try to hide your failure to actually refute his point, by arrogance, peasant.

Correct... jamest is the lowest of peasants, squire.

Conversely, cut the rest of your shit out.

Continued failure to refute the original point, has not been hidden by your flippant reply.

There is nothing flippant about ridding jamest of any significance here, rest assured.
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Re: Who Made God?

#203  Postby Wortfish » Oct 21, 2016 12:12 am

Shrunk wrote:
We could refine the analogy by imagining a universe in which a single magnet exists, and every other object in the universe is composed of material that is not affected by magnetism, so the force can never be observed. Does the magnetic force still exist, nonetheless? Why wouldn't it?


Well, fields are dependent on objects. A magnetic field requires there to be magnetic material.
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Re: Who Made God?

#204  Postby Wortfish » Oct 21, 2016 12:19 am

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
No amount of blind appeal to common sense, no matter how you rephrase it, will change the fact that you keep failing to demonstrate how the laws of physics cannot exist without physical objects.


E=mc^2 cannot exist without reference to the velocity of a physical phenomenon called light and objects having mass. Likewise, Newton's inverse-square law of gravitation requires there to be two objects having mass that are attracted to each other. The laws of physics are derived from observing and measuring physical phenomena just as Pythagoras' hypoteneuse rule is derived from measuring the sides of a right angled triangle. They don't exist in isolation to what they refer to.
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Re: Who Made God?

#205  Postby Shrunk » Oct 21, 2016 12:23 am

Wortfish wrote:
Shrunk wrote:
We could refine the analogy by imagining a universe in which a single magnet exists, and every other object in the universe is composed of material that is not affected by magnetism, so the force can never be observed. Does the magnetic force still exist, nonetheless? Why wouldn't it?


Well, fields are dependent on objects. A magnetic field requires there to be magnetic material.


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Re: Who Made God?

#206  Postby Shrunk » Oct 21, 2016 12:25 am

Wortfish wrote:The laws of physics are derived from observing and measuring physical phenomena just as Pythagoras' hypoteneuse rule is derived from measuring the sides of a right angled triangle.


So you think a right angle triangle could exist that does not comply with the Pythagorean theorem? Interesting. Why don't you draw us such a triangle?

They don't exist in isolation to what they refer to.


Unless they do. Don't just assert that they don't. Show your work.
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Re: Who Made God?

#207  Postby Shrunk » Oct 21, 2016 12:35 am

BTW, "Wortfish", how do you think math works? For instance, how is it possible to perform calculations using things like irrational numbers, which cannot actually be physically represented? Or even do multiplication with very large numbers like 1057, which we could not realistically count if depicted as physical objects?
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Re: Who Made God?

#208  Postby Wilbur » Oct 21, 2016 2:44 am

Blackadder wrote:
jamest wrote:This is a naive thread in my eyes, as the usual attitude of most theists to this question (including myself), is that God is eternal and thus had no beginning... hence required no cause for its own existence. It wouldn't even make sense for God to be an effect of another cause! I mean, God cannot be 'God' if it's a mere effect of something else. That's why God is consistently defined as the primal cause of everything.

I was under the impression that most atheists were aware of this, hence my judgement that it's a naive thread.


Either eternal existence is possible or it's not. If it is, then God is unnecessary. If it's not, then the question of who made God is relevant. Questioning the special pleading for God by theists may seem naive, but that's because the theists' position is itself naive. I await the barrage of sophistry to show that it is instead an exquisitely reasoned and profound position. :grin:



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Re: Who Made God?

#209  Postby Blackadder » Oct 21, 2016 7:20 am

Wilbur wrote:
Blackadder wrote:
jamest wrote:This is a naive thread in my eyes, as the usual attitude of most theists to this question (including myself), is that God is eternal and thus had no beginning... hence required no cause for its own existence. It wouldn't even make sense for God to be an effect of another cause! I mean, God cannot be 'God' if it's a mere effect of something else. That's why God is consistently defined as the primal cause of everything.

I was under the impression that most atheists were aware of this, hence my judgement that it's a naive thread.


Either eternal existence is possible or it's not. If it is, then God is unnecessary. If it's not, then the question of who made God is relevant. Questioning the special pleading for God by theists may seem naive, but that's because the theists' position is itself naive. I await the barrage of sophistry to show that it is instead an exquisitely reasoned and profound position. :grin:



jesus mo hucking christ. hompley debuntz dun pleebus.


That makes a lot more sense than creationism.
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Re: Who Made God?

#210  Postby newolder » Oct 21, 2016 8:06 am

newolder wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
newolder wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
What even is a finite circle? Or an infinite circle for that matter?

Sloppy words on my behalf. A perfect circle of finite radius is imaginable but cannot be manufactured or found in nature. A perfect circle of infinite radius looks like a straight line, close up.

I can see the first notion, but how can something have a truly infinite radius?
That would mean there'd be no end to it.

Correct, it may be imaginable but that depends on the limits of imagination, I guess.

Edit to add...

Talking of limits to imagination (and not necessarily limited to infinite circles)...
The hyperbolic geometry of the Poincaré disk encloses an infinite area within a finite circle as can be seen in the following tube:


There are thousands of linked pages to Poincaré's disk and I'm sure even a cursory glance at a few will help. The most well known examples are in the Circle Limit works of M.C.Escher, e.g.
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Re: Who Made God?

#211  Postby Fallible » Oct 21, 2016 8:09 am

Blackadder wrote:
Wilbur wrote:
Blackadder wrote:
jamest wrote:This is a naive thread in my eyes, as the usual attitude of most theists to this question (including myself), is that God is eternal and thus had no beginning... hence required no cause for its own existence. It wouldn't even make sense for God to be an effect of another cause! I mean, God cannot be 'God' if it's a mere effect of something else. That's why God is consistently defined as the primal cause of everything.

I was under the impression that most atheists were aware of this, hence my judgement that it's a naive thread.


Either eternal existence is possible or it's not. If it is, then God is unnecessary. If it's not, then the question of who made God is relevant. Questioning the special pleading for God by theists may seem naive, but that's because the theists' position is itself naive. I await the barrage of sophistry to show that it is instead an exquisitely reasoned and profound position. :grin:



jesus mo hucking christ. hompley debuntz dun pleebus.


That makes a lot more sense than creationism.


Ah, we're here again.

Good luck, peeps.
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Re: Who Made God?

#212  Postby Wortfish » Oct 21, 2016 9:20 am

Shrunk wrote:So you think a right angle triangle could exist that does not comply with the Pythagorean theorem? Interesting. Why don't you draw us such a triangle?


No, that is not what I claimed. I stated that Pyhtagoras' rule is only true when there actually exists a right angled triangle, or a circle for that matter.
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Re: Who Made God?

#213  Postby Wortfish » Oct 21, 2016 9:25 am

Shrunk wrote:BTW, "Wortfish", how do you think math works? For instance, how is it possible to perform calculations using things like irrational numbers, which cannot actually be physically represented? Or even do multiplication with very large numbers like 1057, which we could not realistically count if depicted as physical objects?


We are discussing laws, not sums. And irrational numbers can be physically expressed. PI is one such irrational number. You need it to calculate the area and volume of a sphere. Many physical objects are spherical in shape.
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Re: Who Made God?

#214  Postby Alan B » Oct 21, 2016 9:44 am

Wortfish wrote:No, that is not what I claimed. I stated that Pyhtagoras' rule is only true when there actually exists a right angled triangle, or a circle for that matter.

I see. So if I imagine a right-angled triangle, Pythagoras' rule becomes true. Therefore anything I imagine is real, er, true... :whistle:
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Re: Who Made God?

#215  Postby LucidFlight » Oct 21, 2016 9:48 am

Wortfish wrote:
Shrunk wrote:BTW, "Wortfish", how do you think math works? For instance, how is it possible to perform calculations using things like irrational numbers, which cannot actually be physically represented? Or even do multiplication with very large numbers like 1057, which we could not realistically count if depicted as physical objects?


We are discussing laws, not sums. And irrational numbers can be physically expressed. PI is one such irrational number. You need it to calculate the area and volume of a sphere. Many physical objects are spherical in shape.


What if I wanted to measure the diameter of various baked goods?
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Re: Who Made God?

#216  Postby Shrunk » Oct 21, 2016 10:19 am

Wortfish wrote:
Shrunk wrote:So you think a right angle triangle could exist that does not comply with the Pythagorean theorem? Interesting. Why don't you draw us such a triangle?


No, that is not what I claimed. I stated that Pyhtagoras' rule is only true when there actually exists a right angled triangle, or a circle for that matter.


And do you also believe that 10105 x 10567808 = 10567913 is only true if 10567913 objects exist in the universe? What if that many objects don't exist (as I suspect to be the case)? Is there a limit to what we can determine mathematically that is imposed by the limits of the physical universe? That seems a preposterous conclusion, but it's what one would have to draw from your argument.
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Re: Who Made God?

#217  Postby Papa Smurf » Oct 21, 2016 10:30 am

LucidFlight wrote:What if I wanted to measure the diameter of various baked goods?


See if it will fit in your mouth. It it does, it's <1 bitewidth. If it doesn't (in the case of an apple pi for instance), you need to measure in bitedepths and munch throught in in a straight line until you get to the other side.

Ofcourse you can also measure the cirumference by going round the edge, the unit being bitewidth again. You can then calculate the diameter from the measured circumference through the ratio of 1 bitewidth/bitedepth x pi.

The first method has the advantage that you will now have cut the apple pi in two halves for easier consumption. The second method has the advantage that no one else will want a piece anymore. The only problem is the uncertainty principle since measuring the circumference this way will affect both the diameter and the circumference of the remaining pi so you won't know what it is exactly post measurement.
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Re: Who Made God?

#218  Postby Wortfish » Oct 21, 2016 1:59 pm

Shrunk wrote:
And do you also believe that 10105 x 10567808 = 10567913 is only true if 10567913 objects exist in the universe? What if that many objects don't exist (as I suspect to be the case)? Is there a limit to what we can determine mathematically that is imposed by the limits of the physical universe? That seems a preposterous conclusion, but it's what one would have to draw from your argument.


Epic fail. The laws of multiplication are true for any quantity, real or imagined . Epic fail.
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Re: Who Made God?

#219  Postby Wortfish » Oct 21, 2016 2:04 pm

Alan B wrote:
Wortfish wrote:No, that is not what I claimed. I stated that Pyhtagoras' rule is only true when there actually exists a right angled triangle, or a circle for that matter.

I see. So if I imagine a right-angled triangle, Pythagoras' rule becomes true. Therefore anything I imagine is real, er, true... :whistle:


What it means is that the theorem pertains to the relationship of the hypoteneuse of a right-angled triangle to the opposite and adjacent sides. Whether the triangle is drawn on paper or exists in your mind is irrelevant.
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Re: Who Made God?

#220  Postby Shrunk » Oct 21, 2016 2:26 pm

Wortfish wrote:
Shrunk wrote:
And do you also believe that 10105 x 10567808 = 10567913 is only true if 10567913 objects exist in the universe? What if that many objects don't exist (as I suspect to be the case)? Is there a limit to what we can determine mathematically that is imposed by the limits of the physical universe? That seems a preposterous conclusion, but it's what one would have to draw from your argument.


Epic fail. The laws of multiplication are true for any quantity, real or imagined . Epic fail.


Yes, epic fail. But not mine. :whistle:

What it means is that the theorem pertains to the relationship of the hypoteneuse of a right-angled triangle to the opposite and adjacent sides. Whether the triangle is drawn on paper or exists in your mind is irrelevant.


So what about a triangle that exists hypothetically, but not in anyone's mind? That is to say, was the Pythagorean theorem true 13 billion years ago, when (most likely) no life existed in the universe? I would say it was. Whereas your argument, if you follow it, would lead to the conclusion that the Pythagorean theorem not yet true then. Is that actually your position?
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