Who Made God?

The ultimate question?

Christianity, Islam, Other Religions & Belief Systems.

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Re: Who Made God?

#281  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Feb 06, 2017 11:02 pm

I've noticed that you've removed a part of my post.
Why don't you adress those responses as well?

Dark energy wrote:
Because our bodies cannot cope.


that is true,yet we like to indulge in those delicious harmful things.

So what?
That is not evidence that we are created, least of all by a god.

Dark energy wrote:
False. You waste time with useless rituals, you limit your understanding of the universe.

that time for me is almost negligible,

Irrelevant. You're still wasting it.

Dark energy wrote:....i try my best to learn and continue learning science while keeping my personal faith.

FIFY. That would be a better way to go about it.


Dark energy wrote:
So do people on drugs.

drugs do harm , believing in creator doesnt.

Not all drugs do harm.
And believing in a creator can do harm. For example thinking your creator will heal you and therefore not seeeking medical assistance. Or believing your body is a perfect and holy creation and therefore not accepting transfusions and/or organ transplants.
And those are just two examples.

Dark energy wrote:

Next phase,will be among the thousands of false gods in planet earth find the true one.

How do you know this?

well,this is how i explain our brief stay here,if our stay was permanent i would have said the concept of afterlife is absurd,because we are permanent here.but we are not.i like science but cant rely on it 100 percent of the time,

It's not practical nor honest to remove the context of someone's question.

You haven't explained anything Dark energy, you've made a claim about gods being false and that there is a true one.
Those are two assertions, not explanations.
I fail to see how the existence of an afterlife is relevant to the current discusion.
If you cannot rely on science and or reason, the best thing to do is to withhold judgement. Not to make stuff up to justify/reinforce a belief in a god.

Dark energy wrote:

the procedure i use is,connection with True entity should be direct,no middle man,should never resemble anything in the observable universe.

Why?

because if there is a middle man ,then i got confused do i worship the middle person/entity or GOD.

I was asking why the true entity should never resemble anything observable.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Who Made God?

#282  Postby Dark energy » Feb 06, 2017 11:22 pm

[Reveal] Spoiler:
see you later
And."
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Re: Who Made God?

#283  Postby tuco » Feb 06, 2017 11:34 pm

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Re: Who Made God?

#284  Postby Fallible » Feb 07, 2017 8:45 am

Most. Boring. Chewtoy. EVER.
Sorry that you think you had it rough in the first world.
You ought to get out of that sooner than later.
Knowledge has turned into a trap; you have to slow down.
Get out of your head and spend less time alone.
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Re: Who Made God?

#285  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Feb 07, 2017 9:35 am

Fallible wrote:Most. Boring. Chewtoy. EVER.

:this:
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Who Made God?

#286  Postby zulumoose » Feb 07, 2017 1:25 pm

who caused this quantum fluctuations in the first place?....

who caused it in the first place? that alone answers the question for me.


Dark Energy, one thing that always frustrates me about believers is this type of question that they ask. They never seem to realise that there is no reason to use the word WHO. By asking a question in that way you have already given it a single possible answer, since the only WHO that has ever been proposed to have created or caused things in that way is a god.

By putting the WHO in there it means you have assumed agency, you have already decided that there was a thought-out purpose behind it, which implies an intelligence, which is a who, which is a god.

There is no reason to assume a purpose, end of story. It makes no difference to reality at all whether you are comfortable with a universe that has no ultimate purpose, comfortable is not a truth indicator. This is the misconception that drives all religion. How comforting it is to believe in something has no value whatsoever in determining whether that something is true.

In fact things that are made up to comfort us are designed to be comforting, things that are simply true, are not.
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Re: Who Made God?

#287  Postby Sendraks » Feb 07, 2017 1:51 pm

zulumoose wrote:
By putting the WHO in there it means you have assumed agency, you have already decided that there was a thought-out purpose behind it, which implies an intelligence, which is a who, which is a god.


Smuggling the premise into the question is so deeply indoctrinated into them, they're almost unable to think any other way.
"One of the great tragedies of mankind is that morality has been hijacked by religion." - Arthur C Clarke

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Re: Who Made God?

#288  Postby sdelsolray » Feb 08, 2017 3:16 am

Dark energy wrote:
How do you think God came by the complexity required to create ultimate grandeur, Dark energy? Did he just pop into existence like that, did something else make him like that or has he always existed like that?


I have no idea how GOD came into existance -in fact,he didnt tell us that-just like i dont understand how the universe came into existance from the scientific viewpoint,yeah i read the big bang theory,but what if there were more than one big bang,who caused this quantum fluctuations in the first place? you know these questions keep going on and on.

for me,there is only one true GOD,I dont need a middle man like jesus or even muhammed cant be middle man,so the concept of trinity doesnt make sense to me .
also,there cant be infinite gods because of the ensuing jealousy,wars that may happen if that is the case.he always existed,nothing like him in the universe,i dont like to quote verses unless neccessary because they are meaningless to you and i will be banned for it,but there is a story in which GOD gathered all the souls of the creation before this big bang,pre-creation and asked them who is their lord and they acknowledged him,so as time goes on in this world,in this material world ,humans tend to forget about this reality,they have a choice,personally dont give a rats about their choice as long as they are happy/contended with it.


A religion with one follower, Dark Energy. How quaint.
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Re: Who Made God?

#289  Postby THWOTH » Feb 08, 2017 4:08 am

Dark energy wrote:...
I have no idea how GOD came into existance -in fact,he didnt tell us that...

Yes he did. He wrote a whole book about it: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

All we need to do now is figure out where words come from.
"No-one is exempt from speaking nonsense – the only misfortune is to do it solemnly."
Michel de Montaigne, Essais, 1580
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Re: Who Made God?

#290  Postby Fallible » Feb 08, 2017 9:03 am

Messed up quote.
Sorry that you think you had it rough in the first world.
You ought to get out of that sooner than later.
Knowledge has turned into a trap; you have to slow down.
Get out of your head and spend less time alone.
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Re: Who Made God?

#291  Postby Wortfish » Aug 02, 2017 12:42 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:This thread is about the origins of God, not the universe.


The two are intimately connected.

God has no origin because he is defined as an infinite and eternal being that never began to exist.

The universe is not infinite (it is expanding) and it is not eternal (it is getting older with the passage of time).

So, the origin of the universe deserves our attention. The "origin" of God is a contradiction in turn.
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Re: Who Made God?

#292  Postby Animavore » Aug 02, 2017 12:47 pm

Wortfish wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:This thread is about the origins of God, not the universe.


The two are intimately connected.

God has no origin because he is defined as an infinite and eternal being that never began to exist.

The universe is not infinite (it is expanding) and it is not eternal (it is getting older with the passage of time).

So, the origin of the universe deserves our attention. The "origin" of God is a contradiction in turn.

This is so circular it doesn't even try pretend it's not.

God has no origin because he's defined that way.
A most evolved electron.
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Re: Who Made God?

#293  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Aug 02, 2017 12:55 pm

Animavore wrote:
Wortfish wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:This thread is about the origins of God, not the universe.


The two are intimately connected.

God has no origin because he is defined as an infinite and eternal being that never began to exist.

The universe is not infinite (it is expanding) and it is not eternal (it is getting older with the passage of time).

So, the origin of the universe deserves our attention. The "origin" of God is a contradiction in turn.

This is so circular it doesn't even try pretend it's not.

God has no origin because he's defined that way.

:this:
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Who Made God?

#294  Postby Wortfish » Aug 02, 2017 1:30 pm

Animavore wrote:
God has no origin because he's defined that way.


Absolutely. God is defined as an uncaused first cause and so is eternal and uncreated. He just exists. If God had a designer, he wouldn't be God.
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Re: Who Made God?

#295  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Aug 02, 2017 1:48 pm

Wortfish wrote:
Animavore wrote:
God has no origin because he's defined that way.


Absolutely. God is defined as an uncaused first cause and so is eternal and uncreated. He just exists. If God had a designer, he wouldn't be God.

And that's circular reasoning.

Just like this:
The universe is defined the uncaused entirety of existence. It just exists, if it had a designer, it wouldn't be the universe.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Who Made God?

#296  Postby proudfootz » Aug 02, 2017 1:50 pm

The problem is that you can't just define something into existence.

If there is an 'uncaused first cause' the existence of that would need to be established.

Even if there were such a thing, why call it a god - there's no reason to suppose a 'first cause' has a personality or possesses intelligence.
"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." - Mark Twain
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Re: Who Made God?

#297  Postby Wortfish » Aug 02, 2017 10:18 pm

proudfootz wrote:The problem is that you can't just define something into existence.

If there is an 'uncaused first cause' the existence of that would need to be established.

Even if there were such a thing, why call it a god - there's no reason to suppose a 'first cause' has a personality or possesses intelligence.


I'm not defining God into existence. I am merely stating that God is believed to be the uncreated Creator of everything and so talk of who made God indicates a misunderstanding of what is meant by God.
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Re: Who Made God?

#298  Postby Wortfish » Aug 02, 2017 10:23 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
The universe is defined the uncaused entirety of existence. It just exists, if it had a designer, it wouldn't be the universe.


Well, the universe was, indeed, thought to be eternal and therefore uncaused and uncreated. However, it was never defined as being uncaused, rather only the totality of all things. If the universe was created and brought into existence, it would still be the universe. But if God was created, then whoever created him would be the real God.
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Re: Who Made God?

#299  Postby proudfootz » Aug 03, 2017 1:35 am

Wortfish wrote:
proudfootz wrote:The problem is that you can't just define something into existence.

If there is an 'uncaused first cause' the existence of that would need to be established.

Even if there were such a thing, why call it a god - there's no reason to suppose a 'first cause' has a personality or possesses intelligence.


I'm not defining God into existence. I am merely stating that God is believed to be the uncreated Creator of everything and so talk of who made God indicates a misunderstanding of what is meant by God.


The problem is that when people actually talk about a god, or their 'relationship' to a god, or pray to a god they are talking about a personal being and not an impersonal 'uncaused cause' or whatever.

These gods lose whatever 'godlike' qualities they might have possessed once philosophers try to turn these personal beings worthy of worship, or thanks, or capable of communication with humans into a particle, or a field, or a logical abstraction.

In fact, when we look at the historical development of ideas about gods there is nothing necessarily 'uncaused' about them - the god one worships might have been an ancestor, or the child of some previous god. It might be the spirit that supposedly animated a tree. These are the sorts of gods people prayed to - they were beings very much like mortals who were capable of being flattered, or angered, or bribed.

Not all gods were creator gods, either. Sometimes they did make things out of stuff that came before. Maybe some did create 'something from nothing'.

The only reason why the concept of 'uncaused cause' came to replace earlier concepts of gods among theorists was because of the glaring deficiencies and logical problems with the original ideas. As every original concept of gods came under scrutiny and was found to be deeply flawed, absurd, or simply false the word 'god' retreated into ever more vague and meaningless realms or irrelevance among theologians. Of course, common people want a god they can talk to, one they can pray to, one they can bargain with. Otherwise what's the point of a god that doesn't even know you exist?

Some people today might actually believe in such an abstract god as theologians have invented. But I don't think many do.
"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." - Mark Twain
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Re: Who Made God?

#300  Postby Paul1 » Aug 03, 2017 2:42 am

Late to the party, but this is generally how I deal with it (as an Atheist):

Me: "If everything must have a creator, then surely god needs a creator too?"
Them: "No, god is eternal, outside of our time based universe"
Me: "Then why can't the universe be eternal - time itself created at the big bang, before that just a static singularity"
Them: "Where did everything before the big bang come from?"
Me: "It was just always there, frozen because time was not flowing yet"
Them: "But something had to put that stuff there?!"
Me: "Well no, the universe is all that exists. It always has and will always be."
etc
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two makes four. If that is granted, all else follows.
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