Who Made God?

The ultimate question?

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Re: Who Made God?

#961  Postby GrahamH » Jan 02, 2020 9:21 am

jamest wrote:Why does this idiotic thread still persist?

Via any logical/rational consideration of the meaningful concept of God, to ask the question posed by the OP is a nonsense.

God cannot have been born/created on any date in the past because if this were the case it would undermine the very meaningfulness of said concept. By any and all logical consideration, if God exists 'it' must necessarily not have happened after time/events had already begun, meaning that God must exist prior to any time or events happening in time.


You have completely missed the point jamest. "who made God" is a critique of the KCA that is predicated on a GOD that just exists, omniscient, omnipotent, presumably knowing every detail of the universe it will create, without cause.

How absurd to suppose that knowledge of a universe just happens to exist while insisting the thing itself requires a god to make it.

It isn't to be taken literally. It isn't actually asking which being created god nor that god began to exist.

And if that undermines the very meaningfulness of said concept then that is very much the point. The argument supporting said concept is unsound.
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Re: Who Made God?

#962  Postby Hermit » Jan 03, 2020 10:02 am

jamest wrote:Why does this idiotic thread still persist?

Via any logical/rational consideration of the meaningful concept of God, to ask the question posed by the OP is a nonsense.

Firstly, it's because 20% of this threads posts were created by theists who argue that God was not made. They bear 20% of the responsibility for this thread not having sunk into oblivion. Thanks for keeping it alive. :thumbup:

Secondly, it's because only theists believe that the question is a nonsense. For the rest of us it poses a good question. You see, we don't accept that God is the uncreated creator of life, the universe and everything who, rather than made at all, always existed. We see gods as having been made (and remade) in the image of man, rather than the other way around. Image

Thirdly, it's a trap. Do read the opening post one day. You'll discover the question was formulated in order to give theists a chance to make themselves an object fit for ridicule. Congratulations; you're doing really well in that regard. :clap:
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Re: Who Made God?

#963  Postby jamest » Jan 09, 2020 4:23 am

Hermit wrote:
jamest wrote:Why does this idiotic thread still persist?

Via any logical/rational consideration of the meaningful concept of God, to ask the question posed by the OP is a nonsense.

Firstly, it's because 20% of this threads posts were created by theists who argue that God was not made. They bear 20% of the responsibility for this thread not having sunk into oblivion. Thanks for keeping it alive. :thumbup:

Secondly, it's because only theists believe that the question is a nonsense. For the rest of us it poses a good question. You see, we don't accept that God is the uncreated creator of life, the universe and everything who, rather than made at all, always existed. We see gods as having been made (and remade) in the image of man, rather than the other way around. Image

Thirdly, it's a trap. Do read the opening post one day. You'll discover the question was formulated in order to give theists a chance to make themselves an object fit for ridicule. Congratulations; you're doing really well in that regard. :clap:

That response reflected very badly upon your intelligence, I'm afraid. Go and sit in the corner with a traffic cone upon your head, for 30 minutes.
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Re: Who Made God?

#964  Postby jamest » Jan 09, 2020 4:36 am

GrahamH wrote:
jamest wrote:Why does this idiotic thread still persist?

Via any logical/rational consideration of the meaningful concept of God, to ask the question posed by the OP is a nonsense.

God cannot have been born/created on any date in the past because if this were the case it would undermine the very meaningfulness of said concept. By any and all logical consideration, if God exists 'it' must necessarily not have happened after time/events had already begun, meaning that God must exist prior to any time or events happening in time.


You have completely missed the point jamest. "who made God" is a critique of the KCA that is predicated on a GOD that just exists, omniscient, omnipotent, presumably knowing every detail of the universe it will create, without cause.

How absurd to suppose that knowledge of a universe just happens to exist while insisting the thing itself requires a god to make it.

You have completely missed the point Graham, squire, which is that if God exists then the universe only [necessarily] does so as an experience witin God's consciousness, for if God exists then nothing else [actually] can [separately to God].

The point I'm making is that if you want to talk about God, seriously, then at least treat the concept seriously. Otherwise you'll look like a bit of an idiot.
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Re: Who Made God?

#965  Postby Spearthrower » Jan 09, 2020 4:47 am

jamest wrote:
Hermit wrote:
jamest wrote:Why does this idiotic thread still persist?

Via any logical/rational consideration of the meaningful concept of God, to ask the question posed by the OP is a nonsense.

Firstly, it's because 20% of this threads posts were created by theists who argue that God was not made. They bear 20% of the responsibility for this thread not having sunk into oblivion. Thanks for keeping it alive. :thumbup:

Secondly, it's because only theists believe that the question is a nonsense. For the rest of us it poses a good question. You see, we don't accept that God is the uncreated creator of life, the universe and everything who, rather than made at all, always existed. We see gods as having been made (and remade) in the image of man, rather than the other way around. Image

Thirdly, it's a trap. Do read the opening post one day. You'll discover the question was formulated in order to give theists a chance to make themselves an object fit for ridicule. Congratulations; you're doing really well in that regard. :clap:


That response reflected very badly upon your intelligence, I'm afraid. Go and sit in the corner with a traffic cone upon your head, for 30 minutes.



Ad hominem.
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Re: Who Made God?

#966  Postby Spearthrower » Jan 09, 2020 4:47 am

jamest wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
jamest wrote:Why does this idiotic thread still persist?

Via any logical/rational consideration of the meaningful concept of God, to ask the question posed by the OP is a nonsense.

God cannot have been born/created on any date in the past because if this were the case it would undermine the very meaningfulness of said concept. By any and all logical consideration, if God exists 'it' must necessarily not have happened after time/events had already begun, meaning that God must exist prior to any time or events happening in time.


You have completely missed the point jamest. "who made God" is a critique of the KCA that is predicated on a GOD that just exists, omniscient, omnipotent, presumably knowing every detail of the universe it will create, without cause.

How absurd to suppose that knowledge of a universe just happens to exist while insisting the thing itself requires a god to make it.

You have completely missed the point Graham, squire, which is that if God exists then the universe only [necessarily] does so as an experience witin God's consciousness, for if God exists then nothing else [actually] can [separately to God].

The point I'm making is that if you want to talk about God, seriously, then at least treat the concept seriously. Otherwise you'll look like a bit of an idiot.



Ad hominem.
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Re: Who Made God?

#967  Postby Spearthrower » Jan 09, 2020 4:50 am

Do you have any coherent point to make that doesn't require people accept your assertion else they are 'idiots' jamest?
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Re: Who Made God?

#968  Postby Hermit » Jan 09, 2020 6:00 am

jamest wrote:
Hermit wrote:
jamest wrote:Why does this idiotic thread still persist?

Via any logical/rational consideration of the meaningful concept of God, to ask the question posed by the OP is a nonsense.

Firstly, it's because 20% of this threads posts were created by theists who argue that God was not made. They bear 20% of the responsibility for this thread not having sunk into oblivion. Thanks for keeping it alive. :thumbup:

Secondly, it's because only theists believe that the question is a nonsense. For the rest of us it poses a good question. You see, we don't accept that God is the uncreated creator of life, the universe and everything who, rather than made at all, always existed. We see gods as having been made (and remade) in the image of man, rather than the other way around. Image

Thirdly, it's a trap. Do read the opening post one day. You'll discover the question was formulated in order to give theists a chance to make themselves an object fit for ridicule. Congratulations; you're doing really well in that regard. :clap:

That response reflected very badly upon your intelligence, I'm afraid. Go and sit in the corner with a traffic cone upon your head, for 30 minutes.

I really appreciate closely reasoned replies, even if I disagree with them, to any issues raised. You should try doing that one day. Attempts at playing the man rather than the ball don't qualify, JamesT, though I must admit that this instance made me chuckle.
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Re: Who Made God?

#969  Postby Cito di Pense » Jan 09, 2020 6:31 am

jamest wrote:
You have completely missed the point Graham, squire, which is that if God exists then the universe only [necessarily] does so as an experience witin God's consciousness, for if God exists then nothing else [actually] can [separately to God].

The point I'm making is that if you want to talk about God, seriously, then at least treat the concept seriously. Otherwise you'll look like a bit of an idiot.


You, of all people, have no business treating God as a hypothetical. All theology proceeds from the hypothetical. If I talk about God, I talk about it as a hypothetical. It's always "if God exists". Some people, like you, jamest, should actually spend time on what follows from the hypothetical; all you ever do is re-state the hypothetical with different words. I suppose you'd want to see what you can write if you just make something up in order to start, but you never write it. Let's face it, you observe that other people believe in God, but you have no idea why they do, and that's why you never get beyond the hypothetical.

GrahamH wrote:"who made God" is a critique of the KCA that is predicated on a GOD that just exists, omniscient, omnipotent, presumably knowing every detail of the universe it will create, without cause.


How am I better off assuming there are no uncaused events, when manifestly, there are? You'd have to understand some science in order to discuss this. Your trick is say that there only appear to be uncaused events. See also, hypothetical.

jamest wrote:
The point I'm making is that if you want to talk about God, seriously, then at least treat the concept seriously.


Do you mean, not as hypothetical? Fuck off, with that. The KCA states there can be no uncaused causes, therefore God. This is done without argument, as if it should be self-evident. God is supposed to be self-evident. It's still a hypothetical.
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Re: Who Made God?

#970  Postby GrahamH » Jan 09, 2020 10:43 am

jamest wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
jamest wrote:Why does this idiotic thread still persist?

Via any logical/rational consideration of the meaningful concept of God, to ask the question posed by the OP is a nonsense.

God cannot have been born/created on any date in the past because if this were the case it would undermine the very meaningfulness of said concept. By any and all logical consideration, if God exists 'it' must necessarily not have happened after time/events had already begun, meaning that God must exist prior to any time or events happening in time.


You have completely missed the point jamest. "who made God" is a critique of the KCA that is predicated on a GOD that just exists, omniscient, omnipotent, presumably knowing every detail of the universe it will create, without cause.

How absurd to suppose that knowledge of a universe just happens to exist while insisting the thing itself requires a god to make it.

You have completely missed the point Graham, squire, which is that if God exists then the universe only [necessarily] does so as an experience witin God's consciousness, for if God exists then nothing else [actually] can [separately to God].

The point I'm making is that if you want to talk about God, seriously, then at least treat the concept seriously. Otherwise you'll look like a bit of an idiot.


No "squire", yours is only one god hypothesis among many. It's not [necessary] to define god as sentient. It cannot be established that the universe only exists as experiences of a mind.

But the core of the argument is that there is something complexly ordered to be explained (the universe) but that same complex order is not explained at all by supposing it just happens to exist in the mind of a god. If omniscient knowledge of the universe can exist in the mind of a god (by necessity or whatever) it might exist without a god mind.

I think you are lost in fantasises about supposed capabilities of "minds" that lead you astray in serious consideration of your philosophy. You use the fantasy as a blank cheque that avoids proper scrutiny. It's the laziest plot justification there is in fiction - "it's all a dream". You need to raise your game.
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Re: Who Made God?

#971  Postby Cito di Pense » Jan 09, 2020 10:51 am

GrahamH wrote:It's not [necessary] to define god as sentient.


Necessary? You mean, something's necessary because somebody wants it that way? Please engage brain before writing.

That would be merely about what anyone gets out of defining something just for the helluvit. You really do have to offer some notions about what the point would be of defining god as non-sentient. That's like kissing your sister through a screen door.

The whole point of god is sentience, purpose, intent. Otherwise, it's just mindlessly mouthing the sound "god".

You take mindless, I'll take sentience, at least, in theology. How is a mindless, non-sentient god otherwise helpful?
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Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Who Made God?

#972  Postby Alan B » Jan 09, 2020 11:02 am

So, God exists and made the Universe and all life in it. What else did it make or would that be its sole purpose for existing?
I have NO BELIEF in the existence of a God or gods. I do not have to offer evidence nor do I have to determine absence of evidence because I do not ASSERT that a God does or does not or gods do or do not exist.
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Re: Who Made God?

#973  Postby Cito di Pense » Jan 09, 2020 11:03 am

Alan B wrote:So, God exists and made the Universe and all life in it. What else did it make or would that be its sole purpose for existing?


The universe is defined as "everything". What else is there besides "everything"? That's right: God. Ask a stupid fucking question, get an answer you feel insults your intelligence. Now, tell me something about the multiverse! What's in it? Everything, right?

'Everything' is a simple word. What does it incorporate? Everytihing!
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Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Who Made God?

#974  Postby GrahamH » Jan 09, 2020 11:10 am

Cito di Pense wrote:
How am I better off assuming there are no uncaused events, when manifestly, there are? You'd have to understand some science in order to discuss this. Your trick is say that there only appear to be uncaused events. See also, hypothetical.


"Manifestly there are"? They may well be, but hoe can classlessness be "manifest"? These are events that have no observable or theoretical cause, so calling them "uncaused" is reasonable, but hardly a definitive "metaphysical truth", is it?

If jamest want to pretend that "virtual particles" are "caused by the imaginings of god's infinite mind" of some such twaddle we can discount it as twaddle by we can't demonstrate it is "manifestly" false. Someone like Conway who speaks of free will in quantum particles might say it is free will that is the cause of radioactive decay (I hope he would say no such thing, this is just a what if).

Can you clarify what are these manifestly uncaused events?
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Re: Who Made God?

#975  Postby Cito di Pense » Jan 09, 2020 11:14 am

GrahamH wrote:"Manifestly there are"? They may well be, but hoe can classlessness be "manifest"? These are events that have no observable or theoretical cause, so calling them "uncaused" is reasonable, but hardly a definitive "metaphysical truth", is it?


Manifest is what we can observe, Graham. It's not about saying what's really real. But feel free: Go on and fix for us what causal defines besides what we can observe? If you want to do philosophy and classes, do it in a philosophy thread. Make it about God.
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Re: Who Made God?

#976  Postby GrahamH » Jan 09, 2020 11:22 am

Cito di Pense wrote:
GrahamH wrote:It's not [necessary] to define god as sentient.


Necessary? You mean, something's necessary because somebody wants it that way? Please engage brain before writing.

That would be merely about what anyone gets out of defining something just for the helluvit. You really do have to offer some notions about what the point would be of defining god as non-sentient. That's like kissing your sister through a screen door.

The whole point of god is sentience, purpose, intent. Otherwise, it's just mindlessly mouthing the sound "god".

You take mindless, I'll take sentience, at least, in theology. How is a mindless, non-sentient god otherwise helpful?


It was good enough for Spinoza and many others. What's the point in such a definition? I don't know.

"Spinoza expressly denies personality and consciousness to God; he has neither intelligence, feeling, nor will; he does not act according to purpose, but everything follows necessarily from his nature, according to law...."[12] Thus, Spinoza's cool, indifferent God differs from the concept of an anthropomorphic, fatherly God who cares about humanity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinozism ... ontroversy



As for necessity, isn't the idea of an uncaused prime mover predicated on logical necessity of existence? "Contingent and necessary beings" and other metaphysical wankery. My point then, is anyone appealing to necessary existence of detailed knowledge of a complex universe has to answer why that complexity might not itself exist non-contingently without god.
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Re: Who Made God?

#977  Postby GrahamH » Jan 09, 2020 11:23 am

Cito di Pense wrote:
GrahamH wrote:"Manifestly there are"? They may well be, but hoe can classlessness be "manifest"? These are events that have no observable or theoretical cause, so calling them "uncaused" is reasonable, but hardly a definitive "metaphysical truth", is it?


Manifest is what we can observe, Graham. It's not about saying what's really real. But feel free: Go on and fix for us what causal defines besides what we can observe? If you want to do philosophy and classes, do it in a philosophy thread. Make it about God.


Very good. Manifest is hat we observe. How do you observe events to be uncaused? Can you give an example?
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Re: Who Made God?

#978  Postby Cito di Pense » Jan 09, 2020 11:25 am

GrahamH wrote:
As for necessity, isn't the idea of an uncaused prime mover predicated on logical necessity of existence?


Seeing as how existence is never characterized, you can just fuck off with questions like that. We take existence for granted. Tell me more about logical necessity.

GrahamH wrote:How do you observe events to be uncaused? Can you give an example?


Probabilistic events are taken as being uncaused. Want to specify their causes? Do a good job. If you can't specify their causes before the final curtain comes down, fuck off with that, too: Causes are something that people name for various purposes, including assigning responsibility. See you in the Free Will thread.
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Re: Who Made God?

#979  Postby GrahamH » Jan 09, 2020 11:35 am

Cito di Pense wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
As for necessity, isn't the idea of an uncaused prime mover predicated on logical necessity of existence?


Seeing as how existence is never characterized, you can just fuck off with questions like that. We take existence for granted. Tell me more about logical necessity.


It's not my argument to defend. I merely note that people who argue for a "prime mover" are supposing that it exists by necessity.
They "take it for granted" is you prefer. It doesn't explain anything though, does it? So they can fuck off with assertions like that.


Cito di Pense wrote:
GrahamH wrote:How do you observe events to be uncaused? Can you give an example?


Probabilistic events are taken as uncaused. Want to specify their causes? Do a good job.


There you go "taken as uncaused" I.e. not "manifestly uncaused". I don't want to "specify their causes" I'm pointing out to you that your claim that the absence of causes is "manifest" can't be any more than "taken as uncaused". I'm fine with that.

Some people get mixed up about cause to the extent their choices are "taken as" "caused by their own free will" when all that can really be said is that there are events we cannot account for. It's metaphysics not "manifest".
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Re: Who Made God?

#980  Postby Cito di Pense » Jan 09, 2020 11:39 am

GrahamH wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
As for necessity, isn't the idea of an uncaused prime mover predicated on logical necessity of existence?


Seeing as how existence is never characterized, you can just fuck off with questions like that. We take existence for granted. Tell me more about logical necessity.


It's not my argument to defend.


Well, then that should be the end of it. No one will answer your question, which is why I told you to fuck off with it. You brought up existence. Or maybe you'd say somebody else did. It's not metaphysics if you decide that metaphysics is crap and just go with what you can address with evidence.
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