Who Made God?

The ultimate question?

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Re: Who Made God?

#981  Postby GrahamH » Jan 09, 2020 1:19 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:It's not metaphysics if you decide that metaphysics is crap and just go with what you can address with evidence.

That's better. It's jamest making metaphysical claims. Stay away from "...assuming there are no uncaused events, when manifestly, there are?"
Why do you think that?
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Re: Who Made God?

#982  Postby Cito di Pense » Jan 09, 2020 2:28 pm

GrahamH wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:It's not metaphysics if you decide that metaphysics is crap and just go with what you can address with evidence.

That's better. It's jamest making metaphysical claims. Stay away from "...assuming there are no uncaused events, when manifestly, there are?"


Go sell your rigidified determinism to somebody who cares.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Who Made God?

#983  Postby GrahamH » Jan 09, 2020 2:43 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:It's not metaphysics if you decide that metaphysics is crap and just go with what you can address with evidence.

That's better. It's jamest making metaphysical claims. Stay away from "...assuming there are no uncaused events, when manifestly, there are?"


Go sell your rigidified determinism to somebody who cares.


You are mistaken, again. I'm not selling anything. Do you think I'm "selling" that all events are "caused"?
Not so. Think again. jamest is trying to sell something and the rest of us are pointing out why it's a scam.
You were mistaken in claiming uncaused events were manifest. not a big issue, but a mistake all the same.
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Re: Who Made God?

#984  Postby Cito di Pense » Jan 09, 2020 3:01 pm

GrahamH wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:It's not metaphysics if you decide that metaphysics is crap and just go with what you can address with evidence.

That's better. It's jamest making metaphysical claims. Stay away from "...assuming there are no uncaused events, when manifestly, there are?"


Go sell your rigidified determinism to somebody who cares.


You are mistaken, again. I'm not selling anything. Do you think I'm "selling" that all events are "caused"?
Not so. Think again. jamest is trying to sell something and the rest of us are pointing out why it's a scam.
You were mistaken in claiming uncaused events were manifest. not a big issue, but a mistake all the same.


Then you should start by defining what you denote by caused events that doesn't produce an infinite regress the way you're using it. Yes, you're selling your opinion that 'causation' has a physical definition instead of a philosophical, linguistic, and social one, or go on with your rigidified determinism. Stochastic events are manifestly not caused in terms of your billiard-ball universe, but feel free to follow the infinite regress.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Who Made God?

#985  Postby GrahamH » Jan 09, 2020 3:11 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
Then you should start by defining what you denote by caused events that doesn't produce an infinite regress the way you're using it. Yes, you're selling your opinion that 'causation' has a physical definition instead of a philosophical, linguistic, and social one, or go on with your rigidified determinism. Stochastic events are manifestly not caused in terms of your billiard-ball universe, but feel free to follow the infinite regress.


god=first cause is not my argument and criticising that is not advocating physical determinism. You are chasing ghosts there.

But this straw man crap is not worth our time
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Re: Who Made God?

#986  Postby Cito di Pense » Jan 09, 2020 3:31 pm

GrahamH wrote:
But this straw man crap is not worth our time


Remember? This is where you came in with me:

GrahamH wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
How am I better off assuming there are no uncaused events, when manifestly, there are? You'd have to understand some science in order to discuss this. Your trick is say that there only appear to be uncaused events. See also, hypothetical.


"Manifestly there are"? They may well be, but hoe can classlessness be "manifest"? These are events that have no observable or theoretical cause, so calling them "uncaused" is reasonable, but hardly a definitive "metaphysical truth", is it?

If jamest want to pretend that "virtual particles" are "caused by the imaginings of god's infinite mind" of some such twaddle we can discount it as twaddle by we can't demonstrate it is "manifestly" false. Someone like Conway who speaks of free will in quantum particles might say it is free will that is the cause of radioactive decay (I hope he would say no such thing, this is just a what if).

Can you clarify what are these manifestly uncaused events?


Take some responsibility for obstreperous replies you make that don't get you anywhere and leave you having to give up on a "straw man". Your standards for "manifestly" might be a little extreme, and you can keep them that way if you don't publish them.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Who Made God?

#987  Postby GrahamH » Jan 09, 2020 3:44 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
But this straw man crap is not worth our time


Remember? This is where you came in with me:

GrahamH wrote:

Can you clarify what are these manifestly uncaused events?


Take some responsibility for obstreperous replies you make that don't get you anywhere and leave you having to give up on a "straw man". Your standards for "manifestly" might be a little extreme, and you can keep them that way if you don't publish them.


The question was rhetorical, of course, because there is no answer. You cannot show there to be "manifestly uncaused events" because a lack of cause cannot be something manifest. It is a lack of anything manifesting as a cause. You might have made an attempt to justify the word "manifest" but you didn't even try. Give it up cito.
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Re: Who Made God?

#988  Postby Blip » Jan 11, 2020 9:41 am


!
GENERAL MODNOTE
The discussion on correlation and causation has been split to its own thread here.
Evolving wrote:Blip, intrepid pilot of light aircraft and wrangler with alligators.
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Re: Who Made God?

#989  Postby angelo » Jan 12, 2020 9:33 am

I'm remembering something Richard Dawkins wrote in one of his books, which because of failing memory I can't remember the title, but it may have been The God Delusion where he states, And I fully agree. " If god[s] exist, they like everything else in the cosmos evolved just like everything else has!" :dopey:
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Re: Who Made God?

#990  Postby GrahamH » Jan 12, 2020 1:07 pm

angelo wrote:I'm remembering something Richard Dawkins wrote in one of his books, which because of failing memory I can't remember the title, but it may have been The God Delusion where he states, And I fully agree. " If god[s] exist, they like everything else in the cosmos evolved just like everything else has!" :dopey:


That's contradictory. By definition god did not evolve. If what someone calls "god" evolved that isn't the "prime mover" omnipotent god assumed in the KCA.
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Re: Who Made God?

#991  Postby Cito di Pense » Jan 12, 2020 1:52 pm

GrahamH wrote:
angelo wrote:I'm remembering something Richard Dawkins wrote in one of his books, which because of failing memory I can't remember the title, but it may have been The God Delusion where he states, And I fully agree. " If god[s] exist, they like everything else in the cosmos evolved just like everything else has!" :dopey:


That's contradictory. By definition god did not evolve. If what someone calls "god" evolved that isn't the "prime mover" omnipotent god assumed in the KCA.


What evolves is theology, as long as we are talking about shit like the KCA. Note that the third letter of the acronym is A. Dawkins was brought up in a religion, and, even though he rejected it early, does not seem to be able to shed the idea that "god" is a thing, or else he's pandering to people who argue with theists who do believe god is a thing.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Who Made God?

#992  Postby GrahamH » Jan 13, 2020 11:22 am

Cito di Pense wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
angelo wrote:I'm remembering something Richard Dawkins wrote in one of his books, which because of failing memory I can't remember the title, but it may have been The God Delusion where he states, And I fully agree. " If god[s] exist, they like everything else in the cosmos evolved just like everything else has!" :dopey:


That's contradictory. By definition god did not evolve. If what someone calls "god" evolved that isn't the "prime mover" omnipotent god assumed in the KCA.


What evolves is theology, as long as we are talking about shit like the KCA. Note that the third letter of the acronym is A. Dawkins was brought up in a religion, and, even though he rejected it early, does not seem to be able to shed the idea that "god" is a thing, or else he's pandering to people who argue with theists who do believe god is a thing.


I don't think that is what Dawkins is doing there. I think he simply meant that if beings existed that had what might now be considered "godlike powers" then they wouldn't be gods in a theological sense, in the "Prime mover" sense, they would just be beings with evolved abilities outside our current understanding/expectations.

An actual quote would probably clarify that.
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Re: Who Made God?

#993  Postby Cito di Pense » Jan 13, 2020 1:39 pm

GrahamH wrote:if beings existed that had what might now be considered "godlike powers" then they wouldn't be gods in a theological sense, in the "Prime mover" sense, they would just be beings with evolved abilities outside our current understanding/expectations.


What fucking godlike powers? Make a list for me that you didn't get from a comic book.

Nope. We don't make anything into a fantasy character simply because it does stuff we don't understand, yet. Goat roasters react that way, but we don't have to.

If you have what some woo-head might call a "supernatural experience" and you lack the introspection to discard your fee-fees about it, you're a woo-head.

You can call this "methodological naturalism" if you like.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Who Made God?

#994  Postby GrahamH » Jan 13, 2020 1:46 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
What fucking godlike powers? Make a list for me that you didn't get from a comic book.


:lol: :lol:

Calm down cito, calm down and stop missing the point.
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Re: Who Made God?

#995  Postby Cito di Pense » Jan 13, 2020 1:51 pm

GrahamH wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
What fucking godlike powers? Make a list for me that you didn't get from a comic book.


:lol: :lol:

Calm down cito, calm down and stop missing the point.


I'm not missing the point, Graham, but you, you're still practicing theology. At best, you're trying to figure out what Dawkins is saying. Don't forget: I'm not atheist, but atheologist, and I'm not trying to figure out what Dawkins is saying, because what he's saying is fucked.
Last edited by Cito di Pense on Jan 13, 2020 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Who Made God?

#996  Postby GrahamH » Jan 13, 2020 1:55 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:you're still practicing theology.

No I'm not.
Why do you think that?
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Re: Who Made God?

#997  Postby Cito di Pense » Jan 13, 2020 1:56 pm

GrahamH wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:you're still practicing theology.

No I'm not.


Fuck off, Graham; if you're not, then you're not saying much at all. We're not having this conversation.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Who Made God?

#998  Postby GrahamH » Jan 13, 2020 2:04 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:you're still practicing theology.

No I'm not.


Fuck off, Graham; if you're not, then you're not saying much at all. We're not having this conversation.


You seem to have lost it cito. You used to post with admirable cantankerous wit, lately its mostly just misdirected bile and now you've hit bare expletives.

I'll save you trouble:

Fuck off Graham.
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